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Picking the best pistol caliber (Read 787 times)
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #30 - 05/01/23 at 11:22:46
 
.38 357
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #31 - 05/01/23 at 14:25:08
 

Savard,

What case and what gun does your .357" slug go into?
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #32 - 05/07/23 at 10:01:03
 

Folks at the range were oggling at my Glock with the extra length barrel.

One Glock carrier was saying that his 9mm was more gun than mine with him shooting fancy copper bullets.

My my my, his copper slugs move out so much faster than standard 9mm slugs, but they are so much slower than my .401" diameter cast lead slugs from my other tweeked "no muzzle rise no recoil" Glock 40 caliber pistol.

MM knows the gun, I like to cheat a little bit, don't I ....    Grin   ???

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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #33 - 05/07/23 at 17:49:29
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 04/29/23 at 07:13:37:

I have had one of the first issued concealed carry permits in NC and the only use I got out of it was being ACTIVELY HARASSED by the local sheriff deputies and base MPs who would routinely (automatically) run my plate as I went down the road then pulled me over to see if I was carrying a gun in some sort of an illegal fashion.  

The street level people thought that was what they were supposed to do .......  their system had "alert flagged" me with a new code they did not even know what it meant, so they pulled me and asked to search me and my car.   Things went downhill from there as they had no warrant and had no probable cause other than their own system errors.   Fortunately, I never had a gun with me at the time.

This BS got old on the second run through and I protested loudly and then relinquished by carry permit as a form of protest (it was the only real way to completely stop the system flag thing).

Right now in my state I can open carry on my belt without permit or nagging flags but unless I had some known bad situation I would not do that.



So, if I'm understanding this, the cops used their position to pull yerass over, because they could.. The cops Actually pulling you over didn't Know that the results of running your plate meant? Sounds like someone was engaging in Official Oppression.
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #34 - 05/07/23 at 18:27:31
 
Yea , OldFeller

I remember a fancy pistol you had .   I was thinking it was a 45 necked down to 40 cal.   I remember thinking it's a little on the Large side for carrying ??

Oldfeller if you ever shot someone with that WildCat round then, the local DA would have you for lunch.   And , Lord help ya if someone is standing behind your original target ... maybe more than one someone standing behind your original target !

I hope your carry gun is one that only enters and not exits , preferably one that explodes as or after entering.

Smiley

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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #35 - 05/08/23 at 09:40:44
 

Justin, this was quite a while ago and I was really pissed at the time.   Now I see that it was all new to them, they saw me flagged in their police alert system something which had only happened to criminals in their past experience.

I ACTED and I got the issue to stop, but I also lost all enthusiasm for carrying concealed as I saw only courts and jail time for me if I went down that fledgling road.

Where I live I have to cross base several times during the week, and carrying concealed on base was stone illegal at that time.

==================================

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/07/23 at 17:49:29:
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 04/29/23 at 07:13:37:

I have had one of the first issued concealed carry permits in NC and the only use I got out of it was being ACTIVELY HARASSED by the local sheriff deputies and base MPs who would routinely (automatically) run my plate as I went down the road then pulled me over to see if I was carrying a gun in some sort of an illegal fashion.  

The street level people thought that was what they were supposed to do .......  their system had "alert flagged" me with a new code they did not even know what it meant, so they pulled me and asked to search me and my car.   Things went downhill from there as they had no warrant and had no probable cause other than their own system errors.   Fortunately, I never had a gun with me at the time.

This BS got old on the second run through and I protested loudly and then relinquished by carry permit as a form of protest (it was the only real way to completely stop the system flag thing).

Right now in my state I can open carry on my belt without permit or nagging flags but unless I had some known bad situation I would not do that.



So, if I'm understanding this, the cops used their position to pull yerass over, because they could.. The cops Actually pulling you over didn't Know that the results of running your plate meant? Sounds like someone was engaging in Official Oppression.

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« Last Edit: 05/08/23 at 14:05:33 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #36 - 05/08/23 at 09:45:49
 

MM,

The Glock 357 Sig guy was getting 1,550 fps out of a 95 grain copper pill, I was getting 1,700 out of my 145 grain cast bullet .40 Super load.

His round cost  him well over a dollar a pop, mine cost me 20 cents.
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #37 - 05/08/23 at 19:30:02
 
OldFeller ,  

That's a lot of explosion going on , especially  to be so close to a person's hand and ears !  

Like I suggested , its to much for a carry pistol - but - might be just fine as  hunting round or a "car killer round"  ??   Wink
A 38 special four in barrel is about the max that I care about shooting.   Above that level I want it in rifle format .   Smiley

I do have a Keltec sub 2000 in 9mm that is light (4 pound-ish) and easy to carry while still being iron sight distance (100 yards) accurate .   I don't load more than factory load speeds for it , but do load home made HP's .

My case trimmer has some attachments that include a homemade  drill bit attachment.   It makes it easy to "HP" anything I have a shell holder for.




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« Last Edit: 05/10/23 at 05:58:38 by MMRanch »  

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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #38 - 06/03/23 at 13:19:45
 

Got too many people saying 9mm is better, so the empirical guys decided to do reality penetration testing (complete with simulated skin, ribs, lungs and heart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0&ab_channel=PaulHarrell

Simple empirical testing like this is both informative and also somewhat common sensical and definitive.   It says yes, the two calibers are relatively close in performance but all the wonder bullets still perform better in 40 caliber rather than 9mm.

Next, the "easier and quicker to shoot" edge to 9mm only seems to apply to small women shooters --- real shooters who do their range time see no edge to accuracy, speed or rate of fire in either direction.

Cost factor goes to 9mm for generic fmj practice ammo --- but carry ammo is a wash as far as cost goes.

Barrier busting energy shows that 9mm needs twice as many shots to get through and break stuff up (car doors, glass and drywall walls).

So, if you use a +2 magazine end cap on your carry magazines to make the round count the same, 40 S&W wins in all the forms of testing.

If you goal is some touchy feely "inclusivity" for female officers (and wimpy out of shape male officers) then you change back over to 9mm and don't ever ask the question ever again  ---- more testing simply tells you touch feely isn't a practical thing for choosing police firearms.


==================================


In the end, it takes 2-3 times the landed 9mm hits to do the same amount of damage either to meat dummies, car doors or to wall structures  ----  and the wimpy crew of whatever gender they are this week can't seem to ever get around to landing that minimal base count of hits anyway .......
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« Last Edit: 06/04/23 at 19:42:37 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #39 - 06/03/23 at 20:43:45
 
I sure hope the only flesh and blood thing I ever shoot is a deer or coyote .   All the legality stuff of unloading on a person is more than I ever want to get into.  
Most of the time I'm sticking with stuff like the Federal Punch personal defense factory load , or the Browning BPR Pre-fragmenting Performance Bullet.  The Aguila Interceptor is near 1500fps with the full 40 gr. too.

Dealing with the Lawyers and Judges worries me more than not stopping a bad person with a double tap.  
Or
Having a projectile exit the intended target and striking an un-intended target !!!   Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=aguila+interceptor+vs+cci
+velocitor#id=1&vid=2d6024c3a6da2a119c2ca080939ec076&action=click

It's amazing how much pottant  those little 22lr rounds have gotten now days.  Most of those premium 22LR's are more than a quarter/round now too.   Mind ya , I carry much bigger rounds in cold weather when folks are wearing coats.   But in "T-Shirt" weather my carry choices get real  easy !!  Wink

Nine to ten inches of pentation is about right for people targets IMHO.

Hay this is one of the pistols I carry and the ammo I use.  
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=aguila+interceptor+vs+cci
+velocitor#id=3&vid=0b69a833b490d4f2e27125e0c21bfea4&action=view




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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #40 - 06/04/23 at 19:48:10
 

MM, wounding an armed assailant and NOT STOPPING HIM gets you a Darwin Award more times than not.   A 22 long rife from a pistol may put somebody in the emergency room to get some of the little 40 grain lead pills removed, but in the meantime the other guy emptied his magazine at you and hit you 2-3 times in the process.

Stopping a gun fight means penetrating the central nervous system and yes, this means a strong possibility of an exit wound.

All of the old cowboy six gun rounds and the 230 grain FMJ 45acp from a Colt autoloader always were through and through on people (generally taking a chunk of spine with them on the way).

WWII evidence says it takes at least 2 hits from a German 9mm Mauser to stop an American GI, while 1 round from a Colt pistol generally did the same job as 2 hits from the German Mauser pistol.

All the emphasis of the currently FBI gel tests is sort of misplaced, as buying new guns and designing your rounds to go just this deep and no deeper just because you are afraid of lawsuits is kinda stupid.  

Designing stuff to stop short of the spine means having to shoot the bad guy accurately a lot more times to stop them.

Replacing all your guns with something intentionally less on purpose is sorta stupid too.
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« Last Edit: 06/05/23 at 05:13:56 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #41 - 06/05/23 at 04:25:33
 
I agree, you need a round that will take down someone or an animal with one shot. To do that I depend on a 45LC, 270 or 45-70, and possibly a 12 ga. with a proper load.  The 22, 380 & 38 are backup or to be used in a pinch until/if the other can be used.
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #42 - 06/05/23 at 06:37:15
 
FBI gel tests is sort of misplaced,

You fellers think the "Gel test" are not a good comparison for real life ?
Undecided
ya'll may be right as far as I know ?
.............

The only comparison I have to people size targets is deer hunting.  I've never been on scene when a people target has been hit.
Here are so observations I've made over the years from deer hunting.

1.   I help track a deer that had been shot with an 30-06 180gr soft point factory load.  The bullet went into the diagram on the lung side and exited in front of the hip.    We tracked blood trail for at least 1/2 mile before we found the deer a half a day later.

2.   I shot a deer with a 60gr. 22 cal Bator cast bullet from a lee mold (22Mag-velocity).     The bullet went in high on the lung and exited strait out the other side (hunting from the ground) , just in one side and out the other - high in the back of the lungs.   That deer went 30 yards and fell over.

3.   Hunting from a tree with a 38 special 140grSWC/1000fps pistol 4"barrel.  The shot went in high in the back of the lungs and exited front part of the lung on the other side.  The deer dropped in it's tracks on the spot.

4.    .223 55gr. varmint home load 3200 fps , ground hunting strait into the lungs , deer dropped like a rock.  No exit.

5.    .243 70gr. varmint home load 3500 fps , ground hunting strait into the lungs , deer dropped like a rock .  No exit.

6.    .357 pistol 158gr.HP, tree hunting entrance high in lung exit low in lung.  deer run 60 yards.

"Oh" , this list could go on for a long time ...  Tongue

Point is , the only one-shot-drops I've ever seen have been spine shots or Varmint (exploding) projectiles.   Either one works but the Varmint requires less accuracy.  
At least with people ... the threat of getting shot might end a situation ?  
 Huh

One more :   45cal-RN-220gr. Muzzle loader rifle  , lung shot , dropped like a rock, lungs came out like lumpy gravy !   Smiley



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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #43 - 06/05/23 at 08:57:06
 
MMRanch wrote on 06/05/23 at 06:37:15:

FBI gel tests is sort of misplaced,


You fellers think the "Gel test" are not a good comparison for real life ?
Undecided
ya'll may be right as far as I know ?
.............



I think ballistics gel is "BB gun qualified at a density to mock relaxed muscle tissue".   People are made of differing density layers interspersed with bone.  Most clear gel is intended to show a maximum clear edged wound cavity and to expand a bullet in a manner somewhat similar to flesh.

Using that particular media and then saying "Thou shalt not penetrate more than 15 inches" is a failure due to some bad assumption failures in the test design.

Key Bad Assumption in the FBI test methodology is intentionally having the bullet intentionally run out of steam just as it finally reaches the spine area.

A better test would have some pig spine bones at that 15" point and if the round didn't smash through the fake spine bones was a test failure.

My cast lead plinking rounds would this job better on this test than most FBI qualified premium price bullets.


==================================


Most of your hunting stories are about severely messing up the lungs in a fairly drastic fashion while taking out a shoulder and a leg.   You are also shooting from above and have to go through the spine area on your way to the lungs.  

Most common pistol rounds really aren't going fast enough for this sort of lung kill action shooting from the front of a person's torso (exception here goes to powdered metal bullets that fragment and "explode" into dust-like fragments in the lung area but this effect still works better at higher velocities than pistol bullets commonly ever reach.

Even then, to stop a Bad Guy in his tracks by popping him sideways in the lungs would take a .357 SIG at 1450 fps or my .40 Super pistol zapping an even larger fragmenting bullet at 1,700 fps.  This would make most of the meat on a deer metal contaminated and unusable.  

Most Bad Guys are shot face on and they cannot be stopped by dropping the BG's blood pressure to zero by ripping out both his lungs as you do with your deer.

You can hit his spine though .....  that drops him in his tracks.
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Re: Picking the best pistol caliber
Reply #44 - 06/05/23 at 12:01:38
 
When I first got the 45-70 I did a penetration test to see what it would do.  I took a section of 6x6 pressure treated post and strapped it to a large tree trunk.  Fired from 50’.  Entry into the 6x6 was ~3” D, exit … back half of post was gone, and then I dug 6” in to the tree to finally recover the round.
It’s adequate.
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