Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Oil Pump Options (Read 161 times)
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Oil Pump Options
03/29/23 at 18:43:31
 
What I describe in this post worked good for me.  If you decide to try this stuff on your own, you assume responsibility for the outcome.  If you don’t have the skills, don’t do it.  If you don’t understand something, STOP and get help.  Get a manual.  Read up.  Comply with ALL the safety requirements outlined in the manual.  Make sure you know what you are doing before attempting any of these modifications.  

In February of 2022, I was a little over half-way through a long term 10,000-mile test on a big bore engine.  It had the new Wiseco flat-top piston installed and made a lot of power.  The engine was slowing down, and something wasn’t right.  I looked and found this.
Back to top
 

5th_Gear_Pittville.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #1 - 03/29/23 at 18:44:32
 
There was heavy pitting on 5th gear.  Metal debris had been flung all around in the engine and it took a toll on the piston and cylinder.  The engine still ran OK, but it was nowhere near as crisp and powerful as it was when I started the test.

I installed my spare engine to continue testing on the flat-top pistons.  The spare had a 94mm flat-top piston, and a cylinder head that flowed a bit less than the one I was running on the 97mm engine.  It wasn’t as powerful as the 97mm flat-top engine, but it still had a lot of steam.  I started a new 10,000-mile long-term test.

The smaller engine ran well throughout the long-term test.  I confined the WOT stuff to 1st thru 4th gear.  It seemed like a prudent move since I wasn’t exactly sure why 5th gear failed on the big-bore.  I kept a close eye on the magnetic drain plug and no chunks of metal showed up.  I did notice a gradual decline in compression as time went on, but the engine ran perfectly.

At the 10,000-mile mark it was time for a teardown.  I wanted to see exactly how things held up.  To my disappointment, 4th gear was severely pitted.  
Back to top
 

4th_Gear_Pitting_Failure_94mm_FT.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #2 - 03/29/23 at 18:46:09
 
There’s an old saying, “If you wanna play you gotta pay.”.  Changing out gears every 10,000 miles seems like too high a price.
 
Gear pitting is a fatigue failure related to overload.  There’s not a lot you can do to rectify the problem.  Some of the choices are:

-Reduce the load (obviously not an option for dragbikemike)

-Improve the material (higher tensile & yield strength, harder surface)

-Increase the load bearing surface to reduce contact pressure (physically larger gears)

-Improve lubrication (more oil, cooler oil, better oil, surface treatments).
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #3 - 03/29/23 at 18:48:21
 
Reducing load is the obvious choice, but I don’t wanna reduce the load.  Increasing the load is the object of my affection.

Improving the material is cost prohibitive, so that one is on the back burner.

Increasing the load bearing surface is a viable option.  The old 4-speed gears are wider than the newer 5-speed gears.  My two failures were on 5-speeds.  I am currently running a 4-speed to continue testing.  Unfortunately, I’m collecting metal chips on the magnet again.  Although I can’t see any gear pitting, it’s obvious something is failing.

Back to top
 

Here_we_go_again.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #4 - 03/29/23 at 18:49:29
 
I refuse to give up.  So, more oil it will be.
 
I have come up with two options for increasing oil flow.  If I increase the volume of oil provided, I can maintain current flow and pressure to the various components in the system and take any excess oil and dump it on the gears.  An ambitious endeavor.

More oil might also be a nice option to pursue on a relatively stock engine.  If any of you are running an oil pressure gage, I’m sure you are familiar with that pit that forms in your stomach when stuck in traffic on a hot day.  You know how anxious you get as you observe the whopping 2 psi degrade to ZERO.  Wouldn’t it be nice if you could run on the freeway and maintain 8 or 9 psi, and maybe never see anything less than maybe 2 psi when idling?
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #5 - 03/29/23 at 18:50:41
 
Option 1 – Bigger Pump

As it turns out, the LS650 uses a gerotor pump that is like the SV650.  The SV650 has three more camshafts, one more rod & piston, and one more gear.  It needs more oil.  Wouldn’t it be nice if the SV650 oil pump could be adapted to the LS650.

This is a stock LS650 oil pump.
Back to top
 

Stock_LS_Pmp.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #6 - 03/29/23 at 18:51:23
 
This is a stock SV650 oil pump.
Back to top
 

Stock_SV_Pmp.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #7 - 03/29/23 at 18:52:27
 
The SV pump does not incorporate a bellmouth suction strainer, but it just happens to utilize a rotating assembly that is exactly the same outside diameter as the LS.  The two pump shafts are the same diameter too.

Here you see the SV rotor next to the LS rotor.  Except for the thickness, they are pretty much the same.  The SV rotor is .512” thick while the LS rotor is .394” thick, a 30% increase.  That should result in a 30% increase in volume if you ignore slippage.  Note that the SV rotor I purchased on eBay is kinda beat up.  Oh well, it’s an experiment.
Back to top
 

Rotor_Stk__3936_vs_SV__5119.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #8 - 03/29/23 at 18:53:07
 
It stands to reason that the SV outer rotor has an identical 30% increase in thickness.
Back to top
 

Ring_Stk__3936_vs_SV__5115.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #9 - 03/29/23 at 18:53:47
 
If you are very, very, very careful and get the setup just right, you can machine the LS pump housing deeper to accept the SV rotating assembly.  You have to get the face and bore running dead-nuts to pull this off, but if I can do it anyone can.
Back to top
 

Machining_Pmp_Hsg.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #10 - 03/29/23 at 18:54:33
 
Fits like a glove.  It must be perfect.  If you get the extended bore eccentric to the original, or if the face isn’t exactly perpendicular to the bore, the rotating assembly will either bind, or the internal leakage will erase the increase in volume and only serve to heat up the oil as the pump slips.
Back to top
 

SV_Rotor_in_LS_Pmp.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #11 - 03/29/23 at 18:55:20
 
I managed a solid 20% increase in flow on the dragbikemike test bench.  Not perfect, but I’ll take what I can get.  Looks like the modified pump might be a significant improvement.  It will bolt right into the LS650 case, use the stock shaft and drive gears, and for sure pump more oil.  It requires complete engine disassembly and I have no idea how the stock system will handle the increased flow.  More to come.
Back to top
 

Test_Bench_in_Action.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #12 - 03/29/23 at 18:56:20
 
Option 2 – Increase Pump Speed

You can increase flow with a bigger pump, or you can also increase flow by turning the pump faster.  The stock oil pump drive is in the primary case, it’s easy to get to.  The 30-tooth drive gear resides on the clutch hub.  The 35-tooth driven gear is on the pump shaft.  So, the drive gears reduce speed, one revolution of the clutch turns the pump 0.86 revolutions.
Back to top
 

Stock_Set.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #13 - 03/29/23 at 18:57:04
 
What if we could switch those gears?  Put the 35-tooth gear on the clutch, and the 30-tooth gear on the pump.  Then instead of a speed reducer, we would have an overdrive system.  One revolution of the clutch will turn the pump 1.17 revolutions.  You could install the hi-speed gearset without tearing apart the engine.  Seems like a good deal to me.  Less work to install, 36% more volume.  What’s not to like about that?
Back to top
 

HiSpeed_Set_Complete.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4401
Honolulu
Re: Oil Pump Options
Reply #14 - 03/29/23 at 18:57:57
 
Well, one thing not to like about that is gears are extremely hard.  These suckers are in excess of HRC 45.  Machining this stuff with my old jalopy lathe and hobbyist tools is tough.  It took a very long time to modify these gears.  I sure hope they don’t blow up.

Had to do an initial cut to establish a reference fit on the 35-tooth gear.  Man, it was hard stuff.
Back to top
 

Establish_fit__ref.jpg

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
09/29/24 at 00:23:06



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Oil Pump Options


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.