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Engine Noise & Rattling (Read 127 times)
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Engine Noise & Rattling
08/17/22 at 11:10:39
 
I'm hoping to get some opinions on what this engine noise could be. I know I've had a few threads recently but I'm trying to separate them based on the issue. Let me know if that's not the best approach, mods.

A little history:
In 2012, I burnt up an exhaust valve which resulted in a catastrophic failure. It pretty much sat until last year. Last year, I rebuilt the engine with a new head and Wiseco piston. I got it running this year and installed a VM36 carb, Versy cam chain tensioner, Versy head plug, and a Barnett clutch. Stock exhaust and air filter. Running Rotella T6 15w-40.

After several rides and one big pull in particular, I started to hear this knocking and/or rattling type sound. The engine doesn't perform ANY different, but I obviously have concerns.

https://imgur.com/a/wU3WupY

To rule some things out, I have installed the modified cam chain tensioner, and I have triple checked my valves. This sounds dumb, but it's something I noticed; I had it idle for a second with the valve inspection covers open as well as the timing plug cover open (honestly didn't think about this one). While oil did splash a bit, I noticed that the sound was much quieter with the left-side timing plug off.

I talked with Dave, and have the flywheel puller tool rental in motion to verify that my flywheel nut isn't loose. I'm a little worried it might be a bad crankcase bearing or maybe an issue with the wrist pin on the piston. Maybe it's piston slap? I know some other guy had an issue with the balancer in the crankcase that was making a knock. Honestly, I feel like I don't know what noises are normal and what aren't at this point. Not sure what to check without tearing the top-end down again, but if I have to, I must.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #1 - 08/17/22 at 13:06:27
 
you need to try and locate the rattle by listening with a stethoscope or a screwdriver.

bearings will screech when they lockup.
if the cam or rockers are going bad, the valves will require adjustment.
sometimes to the point the rocker hits the decomp cam in normal operation.
you said the noise goes away when you remove the timing port cover, could it be that the crank bolt is backing out?
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #2 - 08/17/22 at 15:45:05
 
Robb++, view the video I just posted regarding a loose flywheel.  While your engine is running, throttle it up and listen to your noise.  See if it is similar to mine.  It might be helpful.

My compliments.  You got it runnin.  As I recall, that engine was a mess after a valve snapped off.  You worked a miracle.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #3 - 08/18/22 at 08:47:33
 
Thanks DBM, I appreciate that. This whole forum has been extremely helpful with the whole process, and I'm very thankful you all are here. I got to take my wife for our first ride together a few days ago on my 30th birthday, and it was such a satisfying victory.

Your post definitely makes a compelling case! The rattle isn't quite the same, but it's similar. Knowing that it happened after you installed the Wiseco piston, and Armen's response that hot-rodding his machine did similar things, makes me think something is happening.

Versy, the sound does seem to be coming more from the top, but I know sound can travel. I tried doing some searching with a screw driver, but I couldn't find the source of the rattle. I'm glad you mentioned the crankshaft bolt because I found that it looks like it's been hitting the timing cover or something: https://imgur.com/a/DFCNN2H

I'm going to hold off on running it until I get the flywheel tools.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #4 - 08/26/22 at 11:27:22
 
Welp, I got a lighter flywheel and got it all back together. Same horrible knocking sound. Feeling discouraged. Might light the whole thing on fire.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #5 - 08/26/22 at 13:18:10
 
You don't have to do that. You can just light one end of it and when it gets to the tank, it'll finish it for ya.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #6 - 08/27/22 at 07:56:01
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 08/26/22 at 13:18:10:
You don't have to do that. You can just light one end of it and when it gets to the tank, it'll finish it for ya.



That's some helpful info right there. Smiley

Rob, you are going to have to isolate the source of the noise, otherwise you'll be throwing parts at the bike in a hap hazard way. It could be a big item like a rod bearing, or as simple as a loose engine mount bolt. They can sound the same from the riders position.

These types of noises are much easier to find with a few helpers. And sometimes people who don't know a dang thing about motorcycles are the best helpers because they don't have a preconceived notions about the way things are supposed to sound.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #7 - 08/27/22 at 10:29:31
 
I got a stethoscope my wife was ditching and shoved a eight inch steel rod in it. Much easier to locate a sound source. The Bubba solution? Small diameter tubing and a bolt
A screwdriver handle tightly against the bone in front of the ear.
If it's inside, sounds can seem to be coming from everywhere. Maybe outside, walking around it would help?
When I was a mechanic and some people were having a problem figuring out where a noise was coming from I volunteered to help. I told the foreman to take me to a place I knew of. There was a paved piece of alley with cinder block fences. The sound reflected right back into the car and we were able to get it down to a smaller search area.

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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #8 - 08/30/22 at 19:24:26
 
Finding the source of your noise by listening to the engine will be extremely difficult.  It's air-cooled and rigidly mounted.  I suggest you try the process of elimination.  Let's face it, to eliminate the noise, or at least be comfy with the noise, you will have to disassemble stuff.

The noise you are hearing is like a rattle, a steady clicking, or clacking, or clunking, or slapping, etc., am I correct?

It makes the noise when you are running the engine in neutral.  Is that correct?

It doesn't make any difference if you pull the clutch lever in, it still makes the noise.  Is that correct?

If I am correct on all three of those points, then you can rule out the transmission output shaft and output gears, the transmission input gears, and the speedometer drive.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #9 - 08/30/22 at 19:32:24
 
You experienced this horrific valve failure.  The valve hit the piston (or the piston hit the valve) and the valve broke off.  It wrecked the piston and cylinder head for sure.  I saw those ugly pictures.

What all did you replace?  

Did you use the original cylinder again?  

I believe you got a cylinder head from Dave, so you installed a decent head.  

What about the piston?  Did you install a stock piston or did you install a Wiseco?

If you installed a Wiseco, what kind, flat-top or pop-top?  Did you check valve-to-piston clearance?

Did you bore the cylinder or just hone the original cylinder?  If you honed it, how much?  Did you check piston to cylinder clearance?  What was the clearance?  Did you check it with micrometers or just feeler gages?
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #10 - 08/30/22 at 19:44:08
 
I remember you found chunks of non-magnetic material in the crankcase.  When I read your old posts, they suggest that you completely disassembled the engine.

Did you completely disassemble the engine?  Like split the crankcase so you could see all the transmission gears and the crankshaft and the balancer drive gears and the balance shaft?

Did you check the rod bearing clearance as outlined in the manual?  If so, what was the side clearance and how much did the rod swing?  Did you try to check the rod for excessive radial play by using the method outlined in the manual (pull up on rod, slap with palm, listen for loud clunk)?

Did you verify that all three timing marks on the balancer drive gears were correctly aligned?  Was the balancer drive gear pin in place?  Was the pin tight?  Were all the cushion springs installed and none broken?  Was the drive key in good condition?

Are you sure you retrieved ALL the chunks of metal out of the crankcase?

Did the oil pump turn smooth with no evidence of binding or debris inside?
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #11 - 08/30/22 at 19:54:24
 
Did you inspect the primary drive gear and the primary driven gear?  Did any of the chunks of metal debris run though the primary gears?  Were any gear teeth damaged?

Did you inspect the cam drive sprocket on the crankshaft?  Was it cracked?  How did you tighten the left-hand threaded primary drive nut?  Did you use an impact wrench?

I assume you addressed the cam chain tensioner.  Did you install one of Versy's modified tensioners?  If so, what was the extension?  How far was the plunger sticking out?

Did you install a new cam chain or use your old chain?  If you used your old chain, did you check it for wear?  What was your measurement over 21 pins?

How did the cam chain guides look?  Got any pictures?

Did you install the cam thrust washer?  That's the half-moon washer that goes in the groove on the right side of the cam.  If that thrust washer is missing the cam sprocket bolts rub/hit the aluminum cylinder head (clunk, clunk, clunk).
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #12 - 08/30/22 at 20:10:26
 
As I recall, you had one #ell of a time getting this thing lit off.  You mentioned valve adjustment problems and an extremely low compression pressure reading (like 100 psi).  You posted that you went back into the valve adjustment and found some sort of issue with tight valves.  It was like you had to back off the adjusters a LOT to get things corrected.

Are you comfy with your valve adjustment?  Are you sure that your cam is timed correctly (100% confident)?  Are you sure that you didn't run your valves into the piston again due to the adjusters being grossly too tight or the cam being out of time?  That compression pressure was grossly low.  Valves being bent or held off the seat would explain that super-low compression pressure.  Did you hold the throttle wide open when you were doing the compression test?

Let's talk about your piston and cylinder some more.  You had a big failure.  Did you use the old cylinder, the one that was subjected to the failure?  Did it have dings and scratches from the debris?  Did you use a hone to clean up all those little dings and scratches?  Did you try to remove ALL of the little dings and scratches?

Or, did you pick up a used cylinder off ebay or in the marketplace.  Same questions regarding the hone.  I'm looking to find out how much honing was performed.  Folks have a natural inclination to hone out ALL of the imperfections.  ALL used cylinders have little scratches and such.  You can make things really loose if you try and clean up every last little scratch and/or pit.  Loose pistons slap, and the noise they make gets louder the looser they are.

Tell us everything you can about your cylinder.
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #13 - 08/30/22 at 20:15:36
 
When you replaced your flywheel, did you inspect the ignition pickup in the alternator cover?  Any evidence of rubbing?  Did you look at the chunk of metal welded to the alternator rotor, the piece that triggers the ignition pickup?  Any evidence of contact?

When you removed the alternator rotor, was it tight?  Like real tight?  Did you beat on it or do anything out of the ordinary to get it off the crankshaft?

Did you check the left-hand main bearing for excessive play while you had the alternator rotor and flywheel off?  Can you move it up & down a lot?  Does it clunk when you jerk up on the shaft?
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Re: Engine Noise & Rattling
Reply #14 - 08/30/22 at 20:27:55
 
Don't get discouraged.  Many of us have been exactly where you are right now.  This is a good opportunity to learn a lot.  

If you don't have the tools or gear that you need, consider buying the stuff.  It's not as if you are pouring more cash into the bike.  The tools and equipment will be with you for a good long time and will be used on many more bikes and cars.

Removing the clutch cover, alternator cover, and head cover are easy jobs.  If you dig back into the thing and carefully verify that everything under those covers is as it should be, and don't find the source of your noise, then you will have to remove the cylinder.  That's a little more work, but still a relatively minor endeavor.  You did it once, you can do it again.

As you go through all the stuff under those covers, post pictures and explain what you find.  You give us enough info we can help you, but keep things organized and don't be embarrassed to give us all the facts.

You can start by doing your level best to answer all the questions I have asked.  Don't skip any, answer them all.

Good luck.
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