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Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test (Read 346 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #45 - 05/06/22 at 20:24:56
 
First gear on the input shaft had some fretting.  Looked like early stages, probably no harm done.  Same issue as the output shaft pulley spacer and bearing.  The shaft is probably flexing under extreme load and subjecting the faces of the gear and inner race of the ball bearing to cyclic stress.  Each rotation of the shaft cycles the load one time.
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First_Gear_Input_Fretting.jpg

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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #46 - 05/06/22 at 20:25:54
 
This is the input shaft right-side bearing.  You can see the fretting on the inner race.  Also note the lengths Suzuki has gone to prevent the outer race from moving.  It has an anti-rotation pin plus a retainer plate.  I think the retainer plate’s primary mission is to lock the bearing axially.  It must handle thrust load off the helical primary gears.  This bearing was very difficult to jack out of the case.  It took a lot of force.  The right-side input bearing might be prone to spinning in the case.  Be careful with this bearing.  It also costs a fortune (about $75 bucks).
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RH_Trans_Input_Brg_Retention.jpg

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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #47 - 05/06/22 at 20:27:00
 
Going to a bearing supply house for replacements might be a crap shoot.  I don’t think you will be able to find an off-the-shelf replacement for the right-side input shaft bearing.  That special anti-rotation pin might prove problematic.  The only bearing that had markings that could be viewed without removal was the right-side output shaft bearing.  It was clearly marked 6004-C3, indicating it has increased clearance intended for operation up to 248°F and/or has an interference fit on both the inner and outer races.  The others had no markings at all, or no clearance designator.  I am working on trying to check clearance so I can try to correlate to a designator.

The right-side output shaft bearing is the only one with comprehensive markings that can be viewed without removing the bearing.  If this bearing is representative of the other bearings, it implies that I should be looking for bearings with C3 clearance.  
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RH_Trans_Output_Markings.jpg

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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #48 - 05/06/22 at 20:27:38
 
Right-side main bearing, no markings anywhere.  I get that I could simply measure the thing and go buy a 6207 bearing, but I need to know what clearance the designers intended (C1 through C5).  I think that’s important.  More to come.
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #49 - 05/06/22 at 20:28:25
 
I expected to find a lot of metal debris in the oil pump suction strainer, but it only had soft junk in there.  Mostly sealant particles and a few aluminum chips.  I guess that’s good.
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #50 - 05/06/22 at 20:29:49
 
I’m paranoid about balance shaft timing.  Recent reports from other forum members have shown ugly catastrophic failures caused by collisions between the rod and the balance shaft weight.  The only way that can happen is if the balance shaft timing gets out of whack.   For timing to shift, there must be a problem with the drive pin, drive key, or the cushioning springs.

Since my current problem manifested through noise & vibration, it stands to reason that I should be checking out the balance shaft system.

The balance shaft drive gear looks OK.  The teeth are not as smooth as I would like, but there isn’t anything ugly goin on.  The critical drive pin is tight and positioned where it’s supposed to be.   It hasn’t moved.
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #51 - 05/06/22 at 20:30:27
 
The balance shaft driven gear looks similar to the drive gear.  The teeth are not pristine, but they look OK.  All the springs are in place and look fine.  Same goes for three pins captured in the springs.  The pins serve as hard stops.
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Balancer_Driven_Gear.jpg

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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #52 - 05/06/22 at 20:31:03
 
The balance shaft drive key is in good condition.  It’s tight and there are no signs of deformation or shearing.
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #53 - 05/06/22 at 20:32:06
 
I was surprised to find fifth gear on the output shaft in good shape.  No pitting at all.  Another mystery.  How the heck can the input gear be all cratered out without wrecking up the output gear?  That relief/bevel on the crest of each tooth is not doin me any favors.
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #54 - 05/06/22 at 20:32:55
 
Just look at the pits in the input gear.  A little more and I bet a tooth would have snapped off.
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #55 - 05/06/22 at 20:34:18
 
I think an old four-speed gear set might solve the problem.  The late-model fifth gear is on the right and the early model fourth-gear (top gear) is on the left.  The four-speed definitely has beefier input gears.
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Top_Gear_vs_Fifth_Gear.jpg

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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #56 - 05/06/22 at 20:34:58
 
This shows the output gears for a 4-speed and a 5-speed.  The 4-speed top gear is on the left.  The 5-speed top gear is on the right.  Top gear on the 4-speed looks a lot beefier to me.
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Output_Comparison_-_5th_vs_4th.jpg

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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #57 - 05/06/22 at 20:36:14
 
That’s about all of it.  Nothing outright failed, but the input 5th gear was getting close, and the debris wrecked my cylinder.  I could probably hone the cylinder to clean up the raised material, but it would never be the same.  It would run OK, but I’m not lookin for just OK.

The plan:
 
Get the crank squared away so that the runout is within spec.

Change out the bearings to get rid of the excessive play.   Use Loctite retaining compound on the main bearings.  That should mitigate the case bore issues.

Try to install a four-speed gear set to take advantage of the beefier gears.

Bore out my old tight-quench cylinder to 97mm.  It’s about 3mm shorter than stock so the new 97mm flat-top piston won’t work with it.

Modify a 97mm Wiseco pop-top to work with the shorter cylinder.  Make the pop-top a flat-top and try to find a way to adjust the piston assembly weight to match the stock assembly.  Target CR about 10.5:1 to 11:1.

Assemble the stage 3 head with a DR650 cam and stock valve springs.  
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #58 - 05/06/22 at 20:38:39
 
I’m currently running my spare engine that is set up with a 94mm flat-top Wiseco.  It’s running great and I intend to run it for a long time.  I’ve logged 3974 miles on it so far.  I want to do a long-term test on the flat-top piston.  I tore down the original 94mm flat-top engine when I started my Evolution of a HotRod project.  At that time, the 94mm flat-top had 2249 miles on it.  Add the additional 3974 miles from this current setup and the piston and rings have run 6223 miles.  So far so good.
 
When I reassembled the current engine, I just used the original 94mm flat-top and the cylinder it was running in.  I used the old rings over.  The Web 340b cam I had been running was pitted pretty bad, so I simply replaced it with my trusty old DR650 cam.  I left the heavy-duty RD springs and retainers alone (too lazy to change them).  The long-term test will provide an opportunity to see how the DR cam handles heavier springs.

So, I will continue to run the 94mm flat-top engine while I work on the Big Bore 4-Speed project.  I want to put 10,000 miles on it and then tear it down and report.  The focus will be the piston, rings, and cylinder to assess how the special piston holds up.

Regarding the transmission failure and the unusual bearing seats in the engine case, I solicit your input.

Have any of you seen the unusual fretting, tracking, chatter marks, dings, debris damage etc. that I show in my pictures of the main bearing bores?  If so, do you know what caused it?  How to fix it or prevent it?

Have any of you used Loctite 609 or 620?  What was your experience with the product?  Did you have to take the bearing out later and how hard was it to get out?

Have any of you experienced the tweaked crankshaft issue?  How did you deal with it?

Have any of you had a pitting problem with 5th gear?  What can you share?

Armen, throw me a bone.  What can you tell me about your Honda bearing failure?  Did the balls disintegrate?  Races spall?  Cages fall apart?  Outer races spin in the case?  How were the case bores?
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Re: Evolution of a Hotrod Part 10 - Long Term Test
Reply #59 - 05/06/22 at 20:39:30
 
I hope some of you find this report helpful.  As always, I welcome your comments.  I plan to do a report on the Big Bore 4-speed engine.  It’s a good project and I’m sure I will learn a lot.

Best regards,

Mike
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