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Killing of Ahmaud Arbery (Read 450 times)
WebsterMark
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #45 - 11/30/21 at 06:39:44
 
Eegore wrote on 11/29/21 at 15:16:53:
 My point is that we have a structure of law and if we allow for everyone to be judge jury and executioner this is going to get messy fast.

 While it may be easy for you to define criminal from non-criminal during an active crime, everyone is an expert when watching a YouTube video.  Just like everyone can beat Mike Tyson when they don't put gloves on and put in the personal risk.

 My concerns are

 1: Idiots that look for any theft so they can kill someone.  

 2: The general increase in murders as anyone can claim they witnessed a theft to kill.  Get into an argument, kill them, toss a pencil by their body so you can say you were protecting your personal property.

 3:  The general reduction of Due Process of law by giving people the ability to kill based off of the location of inanimate objects.  No more trial by peers if perceived theft is involved.

 


All valid points. But consider the places in the world, the sh!t holes in the world, places we deem far too dangerous to go. The remaining decent people there wish at some point in the past they would’ve stepped up and stopped the decline before they reached the depths of where they are right now.

Stretches of many (most?) major metropolitan areas are beginning to look like Haiti. There are places in North St. Louis where the level of criminal activity must rise to very serious before police even bother with it. We just don’t have enough police who want to work in that area and we’re not the only city like that. Major retailers are closing locations in those areas. The phrase food desert or grocery desert is because major grocery stores pull out of those areas because they’re unprofitable and not just due to sales, but due to theft.

Look at those videos again. Now tell me just exactly how those people become a functioning part of a civilized and law abiding society? What needs to be done to change that? Actually the question is can anything be done to change that short of divine intervention?

No, lining up with guns and shooting people as they come out of stores carrying big screen TVs after lotting them is clearly not the answer. But neither is letting it happen over and over again. The black nationalist that ran over and killed six people so far was a criminal joke. Dozens of arrest with a little or no bail. At some point we’ve got to protect the civilized members of society. Or we will all fall.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #46 - 11/30/21 at 07:48:21
 
Idiots that look for any theft so they can kill someone.  

2: The general increase in murders as anyone can claim they witnessed a theft to kill.  Get into an argument, kill them, toss a pencil by their body so you can say you were protecting your personal property.

3:  The general reduction of Due Process of law by giving people the ability to kill based off of the location of inanimate objects.  No more trial by peers if perceived theft is involved.


Doesn't seem like you think much of your fellow citizens

You also seem confused about what we are talking about

A PENCIL??How ridiculous..
Ohh,how many dollars before you shoot?
Oh how many thugs with crowbar before you shoot?

Depends..
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #47 - 11/30/21 at 09:00:28
 
Doesn't seem like you think much of your fellow citizens

 Why are we having this discussion?  Because our fellow citizens are so law abiding?



You also seem confused about what we are talking about

A PENCIL??How ridiculous..
Ohh,how many dollars before you shoot?
Oh how many thugs with crowbar before you shoot?



 You want to be able to use deadly force, by law, to protect property.  A pencil is property unless otherwise defined by law.

 If law says you can use deadly force to protect "property" then by law I could kill someone for taking a pencil.  Unless some other parameters are defined a pencil is property.  

 You guys want to go simple and just say we should be able to kill people stealing things.  Have you ever actually looked at real US laws and case law instead of lies put up on Facebook?  
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #48 - 11/30/21 at 09:08:27
 

All valid points. But consider the places in the world, the sh!t holes in the world, places we deem far too dangerous to go. The remaining decent people there wish at some point in the past they would’ve stepped up and stopped the decline before they reached the depths of where they are right now.


 
 Or they have a government that isn't run by the people in any capacity and has historically murdered anyone who doesn't comply.


"Look at those videos again. Now tell me just exactly how those people become a functioning part of a civilized and law abiding society? What needs to be done to change that? Actually the question is can anything be done to change that short of divine intervention?"

 I think stores can be designed better.  Maybe not having everything out where people can loot it as easily.  Marijuana stores are excellent examples of higher security yet user friendly experiences.  Expecting a God of some kind to figure it out for us will certainly end up in more theft.
   

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #49 - 11/30/21 at 10:02:48
 
I think stores can be designed better..

Ohh,BOTHER..

Let's blame the victim.


Property crimes are different in a bank.
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #50 - 11/30/21 at 11:41:23
 
Eegore wrote on 11/30/21 at 09:08:27:
" ... they have a government that isn't run by the people in any capacity and has historically murdered anyone who doesn't comply.
 

Are you saying the government here, in the US,
(as apposed to any other government, that you say, is Not run by the people)
because it is, ’technically’, run by the people,

Does not enlist a Tax collection service to target certain people because of their views/actions ?
Does not enlist a high level crime investigating unit, to target certain people because of their views/actions ?
(Actions/Views both within the limits of a Government ‘run by the People’)

Allows one type/group/skin color/religion, of people to do something,  
Does Not allow another,  type/group/skin color/religion, to do the same thing.

Gives non Citizens money, food, shelter, health care,
Does Not help, Citizens, who sleep under bridges in cardboard boxes.

Allows some people to have a Freedom, and others not,
  (when the only thing separating them is a political party)

And on and on and on !

Yea killing a person over a pencil is
JUST AS ridiculous
as Calf, allowing people to STEEL
just under $1,000.00 of stuff,
with NO repercussions.

“California’s Proposition 47 downgraded a variety of “non-serious, nonviolent crimes” that had previously been considered felonies to misdemeanors. These include shoplifting, grand theft, receiving stolen property, forgery, fraud, and writing bad checks. As long as the total value of the stolen property is under $950, only a ghost of an offense has occurred. A thief may now steal something under that limit on a daily basis and it will never rise to felony status.”

“In the event that a perpetrator is pursued and apprehended, the consequence can be a small fine or a brief stay in jail, In reality, these repercussions are rare. In addition, DNA samples aren’t collected from misdemeanor offenders.”

“For law enforcement, however, there is little incentive to chase down low-level criminals. Even if the person is escorted to the station, odds are great he’ll be back on the street in an hour or so.”

““Every bicycle in our building has been stolen,” says Karen Burns, president of a San Francisco condo association. “I’ve caught so many people stealing packages. They don’t care. They know nothing will happen to them. It’s crazy. It’s horrible. I feel like these people need to go to jail.””

“In San Fransisco, for example, shooting up in public is commonplace, whether it’s on the steps of City Hall, in front of a supermarket, or at the entrance to a children’s playground.”

“There has been a grassroots reaction to weakened laws, however. People are beginning to assume control. They’re not waiting for an authority figure to make everything alright. They’ve been hit by thieves too many times, and are tired of seeing their neighborhoods crumble under the weight of open drug use and commerce. Many have stopped believing that city leaders will ever come to their rescue. A type of vigilantism is emerging. Neighbors are posting on social sites such as Nextdoor, and monitoring crime with apps such as Citizen. Residents film perpetrators, then post photos and videos online with messages such as: “Be on the lookout for this man. He stole packages from my door-stoop last night.” and “This woman is selling Fentanyl-dipped cigarettes in front of a preschool. I’ve told her to leave and she did, but if you see her; do the same.” They are forming neighborhood watch groups, and, for those who can afford them, employing private security guards. People are mobilizing, getting creative, and leaning on technology, themselves, and each other for real help. Still, crime victims are pained and livid.”



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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #51 - 11/30/21 at 11:41:51
 
No. I don’t want to pass through 3 sets of staggered doors with walls like a maze just to go into a store. I want to walk in and buy something.

Crackdown. Hard. Do it now before it’s too late.
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #52 - 11/30/21 at 12:37:38
 

"Crackdown. Hard. Do it now before it’s too late."

 I would think lobbying to allow deadly force for the protection of personal property would take several years and would have a low chance of success.

 Maybe some sort of licensing exists for armed security staff and an amendment to current law could allow for those individuals to implement deadly force specific to the prevention of property theft.  

 The intentional maiming of people would be very difficult to implement into law.  Talk about a way to lower your customer base.  If looting starts when you are in there look out because bullets will be flying.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #53 - 11/30/21 at 13:12:25
 
Reee! You Value YOUR STUFF over someone else's LIFE!!??


Well, apparently THEY value MY stuff over their life.

E.you have a Real problem with Equivalency.

You desperately need to maintain the gang of thugs, ARMED with crowbars, with shoplifters.

When staff run out the back door in FEAR, that is AC

Shoot them in the face
Moment.
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #54 - 11/30/21 at 13:28:05
 

E.you have a Real problem with Equivalency.

 There seems to be a real problem thinking I am saying things are equal.



You desperately need to maintain the gang of thugs, ARMED with crowbars, with shoplifters.

When staff run out the back door in FEAR, that is AC



 When staff run out the back door in FEAR, and people protect them, would that be protecting staff or property?  I am very clearly indicating the use of deadly force to protect property when I disagree that killing people running out of a store with a TV is not protecting staff and thus is illegal.  Property is not Staff.

 Allowing any citizen the ability to use deadly force to protect property is a long road to go down and seems futile given the outstanding level of variable.  I see a kid stealing a candy bar can I kill that kid?  If the law says deadly force is allowed to protect "property" then yes I can.
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #55 - 11/30/21 at 13:52:53
 
Yes, E,, absolutely, because it's the breakdown of society and the little prick got a pencil you didn't see.
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #56 - 11/30/21 at 13:53:41
 
What grade was it when you volunteered to be a hall monitor?
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #57 - 11/30/21 at 14:53:39
 
"Yes, E,, absolutely, because it's the breakdown of society and the little prick got a pencil you didn't see."

 

 Well it's not like the proposal here is to allow deadly force to stop the breakdown of society.  It's to allow citizens to use deadly force to protect property.  Gun down looters, it's legal.  Gun down a shoplifter at a gas station, it's legal.  Gun down someone that stole your credit info, it's legal.  

 Oh let people use their better judgement right?  Except those thieves that started this discussion get the same treatment under law you and I do.  So yes they could kill someone for theft as well, even with their level of moral fabric.

 So basically the idea is only good people will use deadly force and only when it applies to the breakdown of society.  All these thieves wouldn't abuse making deadly force to protect "property" legal.

 And lets not forget protecting people is not protecting property.
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #58 - 11/30/21 at 18:37:36
 
Eegore wrote on 11/30/21 at 14:53:39:
...   Well it's not like the proposal here is to allow deadly force to stop the breakdown of society. ..."


Perhaps some people in Calf think otherwise.

“ There has been a grassroots reaction to weakened laws"
" People are beginning to assume control"
" They’re not waiting for an authority figure to make everything alright" "
"  (They) are tired of seeing their neighborhoods crumble under the weight                              
       of open drug use and commerce"
" A type of vigilantism is emerging"

Golly Gee Wally,
their is a REASON the sign says;
  "Don't Feed The Wildlife"


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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
Reply #59 - 12/01/21 at 05:20:10
 
E,A GANG organized thugs,is quite different from
A Shoplifter.
The gangs are strong arm robbers. They are ARMED, and killing the bastards is good.

Shoplifters try to sneak stuff and be invisible.

You should be able to apprehend and prosecute.
If that includes a beat down..
Okay

Reeee!
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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