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Murder investigation method (Read 125 times)
Eegore
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Murder investigation method
10/07/21 at 08:02:49
 

 In this scenario you have had a close family member murdered, let's say a wife/sister/child.  Take a second, if you never have, to think about the results of that type of immediate loss.

 Also you are not a suspect, however a co-worker or friend of your murdered family member is a suspect.  Would it be reasonable, to you, for law enforcement to have warrants that access local internet searches?

 For instance anyone looking up your address, work/school, etc.  Researching your life online, looking up ways to hide a body and such.

 Would you be ok with law enforcement having a warrant that could find people that were looking up your relative prior to their murder?
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #1 - 10/13/21 at 09:43:28
 
 Nobody has an opinion about law enforcement checking a potential murderer's internet search history by means of local search term analysis?
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #2 - 10/13/21 at 10:23:41
 
I think they should need some evidence to present to a judge before being granted a warrant.
What level of evidence is debatable, but more than he/she looks suspicious or I never liked them much.

What say yee?

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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #3 - 10/13/21 at 12:02:19
 
however a co-worker or friend of your murdered family member is a suspect.

Since this is your hypothetical, what makes them a suspect? A Judge should consider that answer before granting a broad warrant.
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #4 - 10/13/21 at 13:13:26
 
"I think they should need some evidence to present to a judge before being granted a warrant.
What level of evidence is debatable, but more than he/she looks suspicious or I never liked them much.
"

 This would be normal warrant procedures, so the amount of evidence needed for any other type of search warrant.  An LEO could not say he never liked the victim's co-worker much and get that approved.


"Since this is your hypothetical, what makes them a suspect? A Judge should consider that answer before granting a broad warrant."

 Evidence.  Witness saw them together, video footage of them in the same area at the same time, they keep showing up at her work IF they are NOT a co-worker.  They show up at her house uninvited if they are a co-worker, etc.  Reports from others indicating suspicious behavior I believe counts as well.

 Webstermark brings up the second part of this discussion, broader search warrants.

 Are internet searches actually private?   If somebody was searching for your wife/daughter's address, her work address, "how to hide a body", "how to conceal DNA evidence" etc.  Would you be ok if law enforcement secured a warrant to look for those internet searches?

 Or would you lean more towards them not being able to engage in internet search history warrants?  This of course means its less likely the person who killed your family would be caught.

 This would be similar to getting threatening phone calls at all hours and the police being able to trace the calls by searching all phones that dialed your number.

 
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #5 - 10/14/21 at 03:53:15
 
It’s not the same as getting threatening phone calls. Internet search by somebody does not interfere with you directly. You don’t know its happening, but you know when somebody calls your house and makes threats. That’s not a valid example.

Two thoughts. Number one, hypotheticals like this are difficult because in real world situation actual emotions come in to play. Just like there’s no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole, if police are investigating a murder of a close family member, whatever thoughts you have about constitutional privacy get thrown out the window. This is a case of being too close to the situation.

Two, if it’s a legitimate suspect, sure the police should be able to search Internet searches. I think that’s commonly done now. But no, Internet searches are not public information, they are private. We should not allow government authorities to do a broad investigation into Internet searches looking for suspicious searches and then based on that, prying into someone’s personal life. That’s not law-enforcement.

If you want to do that, simply suspend the fourth amendment and get rid of maybe 75% of all crime.
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #6 - 10/14/21 at 04:51:04
 
As a follow up, are you in favor of the IRS scanning through bank records of transactions over $600 looking for patterns of tax fraud and then launching an investigation?
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #7 - 10/14/21 at 05:36:53
 
It’s not the same as getting threatening phone calls. Internet search by somebody does not interfere with you directly. You don’t know its happening, but you know when somebody calls your house and makes threats. That’s not a valid example.


 Murder interferes with you directly, so my intended comparison is murder to threatening phone calls.  If we can check caller data pools to see who called you, why can't they check internet searches to see who was looking up your address and how to hide a body?




"Two thoughts. Number one, hypotheticals like this are difficult because in real world situation actual emotions come in to play. Just like there’s no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole, if police are investigating a murder of a close family member, whatever thoughts you have about constitutional privacy get thrown out the window. This is a case of being too close to the situation."

 I see your point so maybe I should have presented it as somebody else's family.




"We should not allow government authorities to do a broad investigation into Internet searches looking for suspicious searches and then based on that, prying into someone’s personal life. That’s not law-enforcement.

If you want to do that, simply suspend the fourth amendment and get rid of maybe 75% of all crime.
"



 
 Ok that answers my question.  I think if a human is killed, it is ok to search for people who might have done it, which to me includes internet searches.  If they went to the local Courthouse and did it there I imagine the video footage, witness accounts etc. would be admissible, but for some reason that exact searching behavior online is different.

 Physical searching by driving around is somehow different than doing it from your phone.




"As a follow up, are you in favor of the IRS scanning through bank records of transactions over $600 looking for patterns of tax fraud and then launching an investigation?"

  I do think the $600 is too low of a number, other than that I am indifferent to it as I don't cheat on my taxes.  If the IRS wants to investigate people who do not claim reportable and only the word reportable with the exemption of all other know words - "Reportable income" and exclusively reportable income and not imagined scenarios of taxing losses, then go ahead.
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #8 - 10/14/21 at 07:21:16
 
 I do think the $600 is too low of a number, other than that I am indifferent to it as I don't cheat on my taxes.  If the IRS wants to investigate people who do not claim reportable and only the word reportable with the exemption of all other know words - "Reportable income" and exclusively reportable income and not imagined scenarios of taxing losses, then go ahead.


So because you’ve got nothing to hide, privacy isn’t a concern to you?
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #9 - 10/14/21 at 07:37:41
 
Quote:
As a follow up, are you in favor of the IRS scanning through bank records of transactions over $600 looking for patterns of tax fraud and then launching an investigation?

Another follow up.
Are you in favor of a neighbor, relative, Police, Judge, Caseworker, Nurse, Doctor, etc, etc, etc,
Saying, 'That Person has Hundreds of GUNS, and Thousands rounds of ammunition.  
   And they are Crazy, so you must take it all away. ?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #10 - 10/14/21 at 07:42:30
 

 So because you’ve got nothing to hide, privacy isn’t a concern to you?

 I think if I choose to use a FICO banking structure I agree to the contracts contained within, which includes reporting gains, and only gains, as reportable income.  Don't put your money into institutions like that if you want actual privacy, use alternatives this is exactly why they were invented.  The people getting around this - they aren't complaining, they are doing something about it.  Did you go sign and send the documentation I provided to fight this?

 Anyone that thinks the IRS should break the law by ignoring reportable income, for any reason, is barking up the wrong tree.  Change the reportable income, stop expecting law enforcement to ignore law.

 It's like all the people complaining about a section of highway that went from 65mph to 55mph in one small section and back to 65mph.  It was an easy ticket spot for LEO and people complained that cops were giving tickets, for speeding.  For actual speeding.  So we got with the DOT had them put up mileage average line studies and got the speed limit reduction removed.  So much more effective than complaining that the cops write tickets.


 So to the original topic:

 Would it be reasonable for law enforcement to search camera footage for all vehicles that were in the area of a murder?  I think so, but I don't know where the change to digital impacts the ability to investigate.  If someone is digitally searching for an address, or physically searching, how do we decide when the internet search is protected?  

 

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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #11 - 10/14/21 at 07:46:27
 

"Are you in favor of a neighbor, relative, Police, Judge, Caseworker, Nurse, Doctor, etc, etc, etc,
Saying, 'That Person has Hundreds of GUNS, and Thousands rounds of ammunition.  
  And they are Crazy, so you must take it all away. ?
"


 The answer is still the same.  No any person should not be able to just say "Crazy" and have all guns taken away.  If I see actual legislation that says any person can just call someone "Crazy" and have their guns taken away I will disagree with it.
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #12 - 10/14/21 at 08:29:08
 
* MnSpring Eegore wrote on 10/14/21 at 07:46:27:
" ... No any person should not be able to just say "Crazy" and have all guns taken away. ... "


Does, 'double negative' come into play with that statement ?
Remove the word, 'no', and the word, 'not'.
See what it now says.


"... Using two negatives usually turns the thought or sentence into a positive one.
Double negatives are generally discouraged in English because they are considered to be poor grammar and they can be confusing. ..."


Some 'double negatives' listed below, as per:
https://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-double-negatives.html


   The evidence is certainly not irrefutable.
   This gem is not uncommon.
   The results are not inconclusive.
   His rebuttal was clearly not nonsensical.
   The price of the car is not insignificant.
   It is not unnecessary to tell the truth all the time.
   The new disease wasn't non-infectious.
   He wasn't irresponsible about his duties.


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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #13 - 10/14/21 at 10:09:54
 
Does, 'double negative' come into play with that statement ?
Remove the word, 'no', and the word, 'not'.
See what it now says.



 I will however it will convey the opposite of what I intended to say:

"Any person should be able to just say "Crazy" and have all guns taken away."

 I mean to say,

 No.  "Any person" should not be able to just say "Crazy" and have all guns taken away.

 To make it more clear:

 No is my answer to MnSpring's question.  My perception is that "Any Person" - as in any known human, should not be able to say the word "Crazy" as an evaluation of another human and have that other human's guns taken away.  This action as described should not happen.

 When I see actual legislation like this I will disagree with it.
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Re: Murder investigation method
Reply #14 - 10/14/21 at 10:56:27
 
Would it be reasonable for law enforcement to search camera footage for all vehicles that were in the area of a murder?  I think so, but I don't know where the change to digital impacts the ability to investigate.  If someone is digitally searching for an address, or physically searching, how do we decide when the internet search is protected?

I think what you’re talking about is the expectation of privacy. Driving on a public road doesn’t carry an expectation of privacy. Right now anyway, internet searches and websites should carry some amount of an expectation of privacy.
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