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Rear Shocks (Read 535 times)
Hiko
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #30 - 10/09/21 at 14:47:57
 
Drag Bike Mike
I fitted the 290mm Whites shocks back in January They were advertised as suitable for retro bikes like Triumph Bsa etc and they were cheap, only about $80 in your money and were all chrome so I thought what the heck I will try them cant be worse than the Suzuki ones.
They have springs of 56mm OD and made from 7mm wire and the coils are 12mm centers in the relaxed state
I run with 2 notches of preload the first notch was a little too soft and bottomed out too easily for me I weigh 200 lbs.  The Suzuki ones on the first notch were  very hard.
I run Shinko 230 140/90-15 on the rear and have no problems with rubbing anywhere I did have to take a bit off the rear belt guard to stop it rubbing on the front pulley and slacken the belt slightly.
Happy with the results for the money spent no doubt there are better solutions around but not for the money I  think
No modifications made to the side stand The bike may lean a little more but I havent noticed much difference
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« Last Edit: 10/09/21 at 16:13:13 by Hiko »  

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Ruttly
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #31 - 10/09/21 at 17:37:18
 
I think the shocks were moved closer to the axle it might ride better but that just increases bad geometry of the shock the upper mounts would need  to be moved rearward too , but maybe not angled forward as much as stock
A rear sub frame would need to be added for upper shock mounts
It may be why swing arms crack
I wonder how the weight distribution changes from a stocker to a Ryca with shortened fork and longer shocks.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #32 - 10/09/21 at 23:53:02
 
Ohiomoto, thanks for the link to Hagon and the part numbers.  Looks like they have an extensive line of shocks.

Gary, thanks for clarifying the static sag (free sag) vs spring rate issue.  I have a better understanding now.  Is it safe to assume that 8% of the total travel is a good target for static sag (free sag)?

Hiko, your bike is so clean.  The White shocks look nice on there.  Same length I am considering.  That chrome rail helps to hide the gap between the fender and tire.  Good to know that you don't have any issues with the kickstand.  Do you feel that your ride is noticeably smoother with the White shocks or do you feel they are simply a good equivalent to the stock shocks?  Did they mitigate or eliminate the pile-driver effect?

Hey Rutly, I was looking at some pics of your tracker.  I love that thing.
Are those Progressive 444s on the back?  How long are they and what springs are you running?  Do they provide a smooth, comfy ride?  
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #33 - 10/10/21 at 06:13:39
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 10/09/21 at 23:53:02:
Gary, thanks for clarifying the static sag (free sag) vs spring rate issue.  I have a better understanding now.  Is it safe to assume that 8% of the total travel is a good target for static sag (free sag)?



Yes, 8% is the correct figure. Close enough is close enough. There is so much stiction in the shocks and system drag from other moving components that it can be difficult to get consistent results. That’s why it is always suggested to take the average from multiple measurements; from both compressing and unloading the suspension.
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Hiko
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #34 - 10/10/21 at 13:31:50
 
[quote a
Hiko, your bike is so clean.  The White shocks look nice on there.  Same length I am considering.  That chrome rail helps to hide the gap between the fender and tire.  Good to know that you don't have any issues with the kickstand.  Do you feel that your ride is noticeably smoother with the White shocks or do you feel they are simply a good equivalent to the stock shocks?  Did they mitigate or eliminate the pile-driver effect?

Drag bike mike
A short distance from me on the highway is a bump that has been there for years and I use it as a test bed
I started with a pad on the seat Then I lifted the front of the seat about 30mm then came the bigger softer rear tyre 140/90-15 Shinko 230 tourmaster
Then came the Whites 290mm shocks
I dont use the pad anymore and the ride is much better than stock
Each step was an improvement
There has been no downsides
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #35 - 10/12/21 at 15:23:27
 
Again, thanks Gary and Hiko for your latest advice and comments.

Since the grease test confirmed that the rear shocks were bottoming on the softest preload setting, and not bottoming but jack-hammer rough on the stiffest preload setting, it was evident that I needed to be somewhere in between.  I decided to try and set the rear end up using Gary’s guidance (30% race sag, 8% static sag).  That would be 20.5mm race sag and 5.5mm static sag.  The closest I could get to the desired values was the 3rd preload setting, which resulted in 19mm race sag and 4mm static sag.  Gary said the springs are too soft and the static sag measurement supports that.

Using Gary’s setup guidance made a noticeable improvement.  Now it’s tolerable.  I did the grease check and after 50 miles of Oahu’s signature potholes, it is using about 85% of the total rear shock travel.  It never bottomed out, and the constant jack-hammer effect I experienced with the stiffest setting is reduced to a sporadic jack-hammer effect (only occurs on really rough pavement).
 
Not being a suspension expert, or even a suspension rank-novice, all I can say is its not nearly as bad as it was.  I could have simply just started trying each setting to see how it felt, but I wanted to see what I could learn.  I’m likin Gary’s setup advice.  When I change out the shocks, I have a better idea of how to set it up.  I decided to go with 11.5” Progressive 412 shocks with 90/130 springs.  They’re cheap, readily available, and basically plug-n-play.  Just about right for my rudimentary skill level.

Now I’m gonna try Gary’s setup procedure on the front forks.  I’ve been riding it around with a zip tie on the fork tube so I can get a feel for how much the forks travel.  They’ve been using up about 4.83”.  That’s 97% of the available travel (5.00”).  I’m gonna try and set the preload so that I can achieve the correct race sag (1.5”) and see what I get for static sag.

As it sits right now (totally stock) it has 2.19” race sag and 1.54” static sag.  Seems like I will have to add a lot of preload.  So, now I have a question regarding the oil level.  The factory manual calls for 75mm.  Is there any merit to fiddling around with the oil level on the box-stock forks?  I was planning to leave it alone for now.  But once I add more preload, and improve race sag and static sag as best I can with the stock springs, would there be any merit to lowering the oil level?
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #36 - 10/12/21 at 15:35:16
 
You’re starting to get religion.

The OEM oil height is ridiculous. It’s that high to compensate for the lack of damping. You could use a higher viscosity oil. That will help with the low speed damping, but it will cause the forks to hydrolock on fast speeds earlier in the stroke. So to gain slow speed comfort, you make the ride worse. There is no winning with damping rods - they have a very narrow window of compliance.

The OEM springs are progressively wound (multi-rate) and don’t respond well to typical preloading. When you preload a multi rate spring to essentially diminish the lower rate, leaving only the higher rate…which leads to a harsh fork.

You know where this is heading. 😀
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #37 - 10/20/21 at 23:07:52
 
While I was waiting for the Progressive 412 shocks and a set of Progressive fork springs (11-1153), I decided to try and set up the stock forks.  A set of .69” (16mm) spacers and washers brought the race sag down to 1.49” (38mm) and the static sag to .61” (15mm).  That’s as good as I can get it.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #38 - 10/20/21 at 23:08:56
 
After an aggressive lap around the secret suspension test track, the zip tie on my front fork showed I was now using about 3.88” of the total available fork travel.  That’s 77%.  I think it was better but it’s seat-o-da-pants.  I’m still groping around in the dark.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #39 - 10/20/21 at 23:09:50
 
It’s still harsh but it didn’t bottom out the forks.  The worst scenario seemed to be abrupt steps in the pavement.  The front end would kick up and that seemed to set up the rear wheel for a killer crash into the step.  Then the rear wheel would hit the step and ouch!  It was harsh.

I thought that the small holes in the fender washers that I used might inhibit the air pressure in the upper region of the fork from equalizing across the washer.
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #40 - 10/20/21 at 23:10:30
 
So, I enlarged the holes to ¾”.
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #41 - 10/20/21 at 23:11:10
 
The larger holes in the washers didn’t change the fork action.  It was about the same, 77% of available travel, seemed better than stock, still harsh.

I figured it wouldn’t hurt to play with the oil level a bit.  I made a simple dipstick.  The lower washer keeps the dipstick in the center of the fork tube so you can get a decent reading even if the fork isn’t straight up & down.
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #42 - 10/20/21 at 23:11:55
 
You remove the springs and compress the forks all the way.  Then use the dipstick to see what the oil level is.  Raise the level to stiffen things up, lower the level to soften up the ride.  The factory manual calls for 75mm.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #43 - 10/20/21 at 23:12:31
 
A MightyVac brake bleeder works good for removing small amounts of oil.
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Re: Rear Shocks
Reply #44 - 10/20/21 at 23:13:28
 
There’s a step in the top triple tree, so if you are checking oil level with the forks on the motorcycle, you have to subtract 10mm from your readings.  For instance, if you measure the level at 120mm, its actually 110mm due to the step.  It’s also important to keep the dipstick centered in the fork tube.
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« Last Edit: 10/21/21 at 09:31:19 by DragBikeMike »  

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