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Lt. Michael L. Byrd (Read 485 times)
Eegore
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #15 - 07/14/21 at 10:46:59
 
 Sharpening metal to a point in an object that has no reasonable reason to be sharp is premeditation.  If I sharpened both sides of a metal pen, I would be considered armed.

 But this argument is going against an instance that requires firearms to consider somebody armed by law.

 For instance the guy swinging a hockey stick should get assault charges, but not armed assault because only on this day at this location being armed requires firearms.  So he was unarmed.

 By that logic there is no need to address sharpened flagpoles as stabbing someone with one is equal to punching them by legal definition at this one location on this one date.  
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #16 - 07/14/21 at 10:56:36
 
One day a year, the rules don't apply.
That's basically the plot of "The Purge".

Life imitates art.  Grin Grin Grin
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #17 - 07/14/21 at 13:05:57
 
It wasn’t an insurrection. Stop it.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #18 - 07/15/21 at 05:12:45
 
 It was an insurrection.  Stop it.

 See how that argument sounds?

 I am not saying the event was an insurrection.  I am saying people who went there to stop an election process for the purpose of keeping Trump in power were part of an insurrection.

 They admit it, they acquired gear and weapons, they organized themselves travelled and entered the Capitol, by force, in an attempt to stop the election process.  That's an armed insurrection, specifically for those who took specific actions.  To claim they "only" took selfies and expecting us to ignore the videos of them also destroying property and assaulting the police is ridiculous.

 The selfie protesters were not part of an insurrection.  The Oath Keepers that planned their actions are insurrectionists.  In all reality they most likely won't even be charged with that anyway.

 
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #19 - 07/15/21 at 05:30:15
 
They won’t be charged because it wasn’t an armed insurrection.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #20 - 07/15/21 at 05:43:35
 
 It was an armed insurrection.  

 See how that argument sounds?  Would that be enough information for you to accept as fact?

 Why in this case are people, like the hockey stick guy, to be considered unarmed?

 Why if the purpose of one's presence is to stop an election, for the purpose of altering the leadership of the Nation, would that not be considered insurrectionist behavior?  
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #21 - 07/15/21 at 07:34:08
 
No, it wasn’t.

If that’s an insurrection then every time BLM and antifa showed up at the White House but were kept out by police and federal agents, then that too was an armed insurrection because had they gotten past the line, they would have killed Trump.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #22 - 07/15/21 at 08:43:53
 
 Yes it was.

 See how that works yet?


"If that’s an insurrection then every time BLM and antifa showed up at the White House but were kept out by police and federal agents, then that too was an armed insurrection because had they gotten past the line, they would have killed Trump."



 If I break a window I can't say I didn't break a window because the cops didn't do anything when you broke a window.

 The issue here is insurrection is a relatively complex definition to apply to modern law, but people want to just say "Yes it was!!!" and others say "No it wasn't!!!" instead of having a real conversation.  So instead of reaching a personal compromise, people look for ways to downplay or exaggerate the event to better suit their assessment.

 Nothing is wrong with comparing BLM protests to Jan 6th protests.

 What's wrong is the immediate response to the above sentence being overly defensive and saying non-productive things like: "But Jan 6th WAS an insurrection!"  or  "BLM protests are NOT an insurrection!!"  or "If that event is not an insurrection then this event can't be!"  We can't just claim a guy hitting people with a hockey stick was unarmed because BLM did this or ANTIFA did that.

 People need to stop grouping everyone on Jan 6th together if they want to have a real adult discussion.  Some had different motives, strategies and goals.  
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #23 - 07/15/21 at 12:57:52
 
So some at the White House fence were guilty of insurrection?

But, the only reason they are not identified is 1) the line held and they were unable to move their insurrectionist plans past stage one and 2) the FBI did not investigate participants at the White House fence anywhere near to the degree with the Jan 6 Capitol event because the Democratic Party controlled media did not push the narrative that the event was an insurrection.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #24 - 07/15/21 at 13:33:35
 
"So some at the White House fence were guilty of insurrection?"

 I wouldn't say guilty, but I would say the possibility of being charged with insurrection is possible.  If they meet the legal standards contained here:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter115&edi...


 To me, some of, the White House group is closer to insurrection by my assessment and, some, of the Jan 6th group is closer to sedition.

Insurrection: An act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

 I would say a lot of Jan 6th was an "instance of rising in revolt" against both the police (civil authority) and an established government.  People there to complain were pretty much protesting.  People who planned for weeks to get into the Capitol for the purpose of stopping the election process, were closer to revolt against an established government than they were to peacefully voicing their concerns.

 Planning constitutes sedition.  A narrower application is required.

 Assisting or generally being part of any "group" revolting or rising up against the government is insurrection.  This is a broader application.

 It is far easier to be an insurrectionist than a seditionist.


 Seditious Conspiracy:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

 This requires two or more.  Therefore individual prosecution may be more difficult for sedition, than insurrection.  

 The White House group seemed to me, to be less interested in general government proceedings and more interested in only the President.  The Jan 6th group had a mix of planning and spontaneity.  

 The interesting thing, to me, about all this is people hang on the word insurrection but nobody seems to care about sedition.  If it were me I'd want to defend myself against insurrection charges since it is so much harder to prove than sedition.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #25 - 07/15/21 at 15:36:30
 
Quote:
"   If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.


... in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,
conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government ...
... or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States...
...  they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both...

Sure does sound like what BLM/ANTIFA had done NUMEROUS times !!!!!

 But na,
the UL DFI Socialists call all that destruction and stealing,
      'Peaceful'

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #26 - 07/15/21 at 16:35:07
 

Sure does sound like what BLM/ANTIFA had done NUMEROUS times !!!!!


 Well it just depends on the viewpoint.  For instance I think there are plenty of crimes committed in Portland, but I don't think many, if any, intended to overthrow the US Government as much as they want to destroy sh!t in Portland.

 So they are more destruction of property than seditionist, to me.  Just like many of the protesters on Jan 6th were more protester than insurrectionist.

 But like I said before, saying other people also broke windows is a weak argument, and not even a discussion really.  It's more like complaining.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #27 - 07/16/21 at 04:05:11
 
But like I said before, saying other people also broke windows is a weak argument, and not even a discussion really.  It's more like complaining.

Not true. What it speaks to is the power of the corporate news media to directly influence(dictate?) policy and law enforcement. Again, it’s absolutely true had Jan 6th occurred and all the players involved switched party affiliation, no one would be in jail, there’d be very few charges, the officer who died would have died of (unfortunate timing but) natural causes and you Eegore would not trying to convince anyone this was an insurrection because the word would never had been mentioned. It would have been a mostly peaceful protest.  

And this is true too; Republicans are evil so if the peaceful protestors had cornered Cruz or Hawley and killed them, well, really not that big of a deal.
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #28 - 07/16/21 at 08:24:15
 
UndecidedWebsterMark wrote on 07/16/21 at 04:05:11:
... What it speaks to is the power of the corporate news media to directly influence(dictate?) policy and law enforcement.  ...


A-yep, just like we-all gonna DIE because the 'new' Delta variant,
             unless we get a vaccine !  

Create FEAR !!!!!!

But ...  Portland, was NOT a 'insurrection' to overthrow the government.
It was a, 'peaceful protest' !

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Ah their is good news,
Just like it cost's about $100.00 to get a really good, fake, 'Green Card'
      (Which are VERY Prevalent)

A New industry for 'fake', vaccine cards, will pop up.
 (Well until the, 'thought' police send you off to the Gulug,
and until you, 'change your mind, and see, their, light)




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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Lt. Michael L. Byrd
Reply #29 - 07/16/21 at 13:51:45
 
"and you Eegore would not trying to convince anyone this was an insurrection because the word would never had been mentioned. It would have been a mostly peaceful protest. "

 Except I'm not using the "news" to make my assessment, I am using US law.  If you actually look at my references instead of just assuming I am wrong, or assuming I came to insurrection because of "media" or even assuming I am attempting to convince anyone of anything we might actually have a discussion.  Did I bring up sedition and cite CNN, or did I bring up sedition and cite actual US law?

 How many times do I have to agree that some of the people along the White house fence could be guilty of insurrection and outline, using US law, why I came to that agreement?  What exactly am I trying to "convince" people of in that instance?

 You want to talk about letting media change our views about laws, explain why that guy swinging a hockey stick is unarmed only on this one day at this one event.
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