SuzukiSavage.com - Does microstamping work?

Eegore

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Does microstamping work?
03/23/21 at 10:23:14

Microstamping is the process of a firing-pin on a firearm punching a small, "microscopic" serial number into the casing of each bullet fired.

This is assumed to be useful in criminal investigation where casings can be used to identify a firearm - without needing to recover the weapon. In regards to investigating crimes this is a huge step. However there are arguments against microstamping as a violation of 2nd Amendment rights.

The question is how "proven" should this technology need to be in order to be submitted as law? Can it stamp an incorrect number? Can it be easily removed from the pin? (like serial number removal) Are the casings useable in court?

Proven flawed:

https://www.nssf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/NSSF-factsheet-Microstamping.pdf

Proven accurate:

https://efsgv.org/wp-content/uploads/EFSGV_Microstamping-Report-2021.pdf

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Does microstamping work? Reply #1 - 03/23/21 at 12:45:36 Where did you get this? How would anyone know if a firing pin is marked? Everyone knows about tool marks on things, but to believe a firing pin is encoded is ,imo frikkin paranoid.
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Eegore

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #2 - 03/23/21 at 14:20:29

I got it from the sources provided above.

Did you read them? (Of course not why start doing that today?) They explain what you are asking.

Microstamping has been a battle in CA law.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=2019202...

Note: This is a Government Paid source.

Microstamping bill was passed by the Senate on Fri Aug 28th and CA Governor was set to sign it directly after.

https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/firearm-microstamping-bill-passes-senat...

Note this is NOT a Government Paid source.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20180703/mission-impossible-california-court-...

Note this NRA posting is NOT a Government Paid source.

https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/press-release/MSMicroSFi...

Note Smith and Wesson's response is NOT a Government Paid source.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Does microstamping work? Reply #3 - 03/23/21 at 15:27:43 Pull the pin Rake it on thousand grit Blah blah blah
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Eegore Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 8398	Re: Does microstamping work? Reply #4 - 03/24/21 at 05:30:29 But does it work?
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verslagen1

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #5 - 03/24/21 at 07:27:24

Quote:

The evidence on microstamping suggests that this law, like previous “gun fingerprinting” laws, is destined for oblivion. The Maryland Integrated Ballistics Identification System (MD-IBIS) program was disbanded and the authorizing legislation repealed in 2015. The Maryland law required firearm manufacturers to test-fire every gun and have the spent bullet casing specially packaged and submitted to state authorities, allowing the state to create a database of “ballistic fingerprints” that could be used to link firearms with gun crimes. Fifteen years and a mountain of shell casings later, not a single crime had been solved through use of the database. At the time this “common sense” program was discontinued, a state lawmaker indicated that “[i]f there was any evidence whatsoever – any evidence – that this was helpful in solving crimes, we wouldn’t have touched it,” but the “police came in and said it was useless. No one contradicted that.” New York State’s Combined Ballistics Identification System (CoBIS) program, costing taxpayers upwards of a million dollars a year, was terminated because the statewide database didn’t “solve crimes or make our streets safe.”

A brief filed by gun control activists in the California litigation admits that “ballistic fingerprinting” databases in New York, Maryland, and Washington, D.C. were a total bust (“impractical, expensive, and ultimately ineffective”), but claims the impossibility argument is unfounded and that microstamping is a viable technology. Manufacturers can comply with the law by simply selling the “gun models currently for sale and not introducing new models in California.” In the meantime, taxpayers in California have to take it on faith that “microstamping laws will enhance the benefits to public safety that they already promise to provide.”

How would microstamping be different?

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MnSpring

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #6 - 03/24/21 at 08:19:43

Eegore wrote on 03/23/21 at 10:23:14:

" Microstamping ...
... Proven accurate (EFSGV_Microstamping-Report-2021.pdf)

The statement, from the site Eegore says, ‘is proof’,

“... This could lead to a decrease in gun carrying and retaliatory shootings …”

Says it all, about the FDS idea,
and the poster saying that the,
opinion PDF, published by a well known ANTI-GUN origination,
is ‘proof’.

Wonder how a ‘Opinion’, suddenly becomes, ‘proof’ ?

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Eegore

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #7 - 03/24/21 at 08:22:40

I'm not sure microstamping would be different when it comes to solving crime given the evidence that case-matching to barrel/pin signature has never been utilized.

I am wondering if the method is reliable. How long will the pin hold the letters? Will they stamp consistently and legibly?

As for how that is used, who knows. Why wasn't a single crime connected to a spent shell casing in Maryland? Is it because the evidence wasn't conclusive enough for court, or because the match was never even tried?

I can see the same issue with microstamping. Lack of legibility, admission in court and lack of analysis.

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Eegore

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #8 - 03/24/21 at 08:29:10

"Says it all, about the FDS idea,
and the poster saying that the,
opinion PDF, published by a well known ANTI-GUN origination,
is ‘proof’.

Wonder how a ‘Opinion’, suddenly becomes, ‘proof’ ?"

It isn't. I did not say it is "proof", you are intentionally taking my post out of context. I said:

"The question is how "proven" should this technology need to be in order to be submitted as law?"

I then offer two sources with directly contradicting outcomes, both if considered "proof" result in a null outcome thus the "proven flawed" vs. "proven accurate" preface to each linked source.

I am asking about - not stating - proof.

How "proven" should microstamping be in order to be implemented in law?

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MnSpring

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #9 - 03/24/21 at 08:58:44

Eegore wrote on 03/24/21 at 08:29:10:

... I did not say it is "proof", you are intentionally taking my post out of context. ...

Have at it,
spin away your statement of one website is:
"... Proven flawed:..."
and another
"... Proven accurate:..."

If you want a answer to:
"... how "proven" should ~~this~~ technology need to be in order to be submitted as law ..."
(which that question has absolutely nothing to do with your statements, of "Proven accurate/flawed")

Nothing. No need for ANY proof.
FDS'ers can/will/and do submit all sorts of DFI/FDS legislation.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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Eegore

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #10 - 03/24/21 at 09:07:02

"Have at it,
spin away your statement of one website is:
"... Proven flawed:..."
and another
"... Proven accurate:...""

That is the claim from those sources. One shows the process is accurate, one shows it is not.

I am providing directly conflicting views on purpose.

If you want a answer to:
"... how "proven" should this technology need to be in order to be submitted as law ..."
(which that question has absolutely nothing to do with your statements, of "Proven accurate/flawed")

They do have something to do with it. They are the sources I provided and they have directly conflicting results from the same technology. One proven accurate, one proven flawed, but actually neither prove anything. Two directly conflicting reports.

"Nothing. No need for ANY proof.
FDS'ers can/will/and do submit all sorts of FDS legislation."

Let me restate:

How "proven" do you think, this technology needs to be in order to be submitted as law?

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verslagen1

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #11 - 03/24/21 at 10:37:31

Eegore wrote on 03/24/21 at 08:22:40:

I'm not sure microstamping would be different when it comes to solving crime given the evidence that case-matching to barrel/pin signature has never been utilized.

I am wondering if the method is reliable. How long will the pin hold the letters? Will they stamp consistently and legibly?

As for how that is used, who knows. Why wasn't a single crime connected to a spent shell casing in Maryland? Is it because the evidence wasn't conclusive enough for court, or because the match was never even tried?

I can see the same issue with microstamping. Lack of legibility, admission in court and lack of analysis.

I think they could only be used together.
The shell could only tie the weapon to the location, or that someone who collects shells drop one there assuming that even a partial would work.
Only the bullet could tie the weapon to the crime.

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Eegore

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #12 - 03/25/21 at 05:36:39

I think they could only be used together.
The shell could only tie the weapon to the location, or that someone who collects shells drop one there assuming that even a partial would work.
Only the bullet could tie the weapon to the crime.

I was thinking along the same lines. Shell casings and bullet signature are two different things, and in case law very different. I could see lawyers easily making the claim that a casing isn't proof of crime committed unless the bullet is matched from a body to that casing.

Then again I've seen successful murder convictions with no body. It's much harder, but it can be done.

If anything tech like this would help in things like immediate use of force, or "crimes of passion" where a person shoots another out of immediate response to an event. Something where they do not intend to commit a crime earlier in the day. Pre-planned criminal activity would do like JoG said and file the numbers.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28890 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Does microstamping work? Reply #13 - 03/25/21 at 07:12:30 Of course the real test is how long will it last and be legible. Cops, military practice often. Has a study been done with their weapons to see long the imprint lasts?
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Eegore

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Re: Does microstamping work?
Reply #14 - 03/25/21 at 08:23:57

There has not been, to my knowledge, a longevity study.

The only reason they are making this law-enforcement required is to incentivize manufacturers to adopt and further research improvements of the tech in hopes of selling to police departments.

As of now pretty much everyone says the cost to output ratio is too high, so just don't sell guns in CA. But with LEO requirements they are hoping some company feels it is prudent to be the first, and possibly only firearms supplier to LEO in CA.

The only advantage in the civilian market for CA politics is the 1 in 3 out law for the approved Roster.

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