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I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle ) (Read 144 times)
Dannydandan
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I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
12/16/20 at 18:12:43
 
DISCLAIMER: I have spent hours and hours reading the forums and trying this and that but I'm at a loss
So a little introductory backstory
Hi I'm Danny I'm new here,
Okay so I have an 08 with 830 miles on it...
It's my first bike and i goofed up the oil change and put car oil in it. Well now its slipping,
BUT I can get it to engage if the bolts on the crank case are loose and the cable disconnected from the cam. How do I go about this so I camt tighten the bolts up and get back on the road if possible I have a steady hand and a dremel somebody stop me.
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oldNslow
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #1 - 12/16/20 at 18:47:21
 
830 miles ? Or is that a typo ?

How long was the car oil in the bike?

The wrong oil won't usually cause a clutch to slip immediately. Simply draining the oil, replacing it with oil compatible with a wet clutch and riding the bike for a while will often clear up slipping caused by incorrect oil if the incorrect oil hasn't been  in there for too long.

What did you do when you had the cover off?

If the clutch is engaged when the cover is loose and the cable is disconnected and disengaged with the cover tightened down then something is broken or the clutch is assembled incorrectly.

If I remember correctly, you have to hold the external arm that the cable attaches to so that it lines up with the clutch rod like it's supposed to when you push the cover all the way home or you can jam it up.
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #2 - 12/16/20 at 20:40:57
 
If you did only what you say you did...
drain the oil, take off the clutch cable and loosen the bolts...
why did you check to see if the clutch was engaged?

If the clutch engages with the case loose and slips with it tight, the throwout rod is too long, baring any other F'up.
With case off, the throwout rod should stick out of the spider about 12.5mm
any longer and you got what you got.
You may have some wear on the bottom of the basket causing the rod to be too long.  maybe, we've only heard wear on the bottom 1 other time.
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #3 - 12/17/20 at 00:11:04
 
You need some free play at the clutch lever on the handlebars before it starts to pull the clutch in  maybe you have it adjusted too tight
or maybe the throwout rod is not in the indent in the operating arm on the inside of the cover
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Dannydandan
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #4 - 12/17/20 at 12:42:34
 
Thanks for the responses everyone
Pardon my vagueness and lack of detail in the OP the migraine I'm nursing is making me dumber I hope this provides more insight and answers everyone's inquiries.

yes it's an 08 with only 830 miles on it.

I'm aware that means its twelve years old and its had to have sat for a while so when I got it I had to put fresh gas in it clean the fuel system clean the carb file down the white spacer. Change the air filter change the oil/oil filter this is the correct oil this time check cables and brakes. Eliminated backfire etc. I'm pretty good with a wrench.

Now forgive me please because I realize that this probably going to be the source of all my problems and I failed to mention it first off
I may have gotten away from myself trying to fix a symptom  instead of the cause.

I dropped her goin about ten mph over some rubble it stalled It was on its left hand side less than 5 seconds  ( the bike was lighter than my pride was) I walked her maybe another 30 feet to our hotel parked her and evaluated the damage a lil scuffing and a cracked turn signal, its starts, I have friction great!

Now here's the madness i left her idling while I went inside for what I thought was only going to be a pit stop well i got caught up with the warden (the bike got more attention than her) she ran out of gas after about an hour idling....

*wincing as I type this lot*
The oil filter cap popped out as well and I lost about a quart of oil I called my dad for help he brought the car oil and some gas we topped off the oil replaced, the cap, and plugged her back up.
Went to start her but the neutral switch wire came unsoldered inside the crank case (i fixed that headache last night) so I raised side stand and she fired right up purred like a kitten with no noise or other black flags.

Up until last night I had no neutral lamp no igniton unless side-stand was up, that day I took her home and removed the tank to clean up any oil that was smothering the connectors. I checked for continuity and resistance everywhere and found nothing a miss except the wire I couldn't get to inside the crank case and filed it under handle later.

Well later came about a hundred miles when her clutch started slippin at high rpms getting lower and lower and  until she doesn't wanna budge I've run about 6 quarts of fresh oil JASO approved oilthrough her since then and I've changed the filter once.
It's worth noting that the actuating arm on the crank case was clearly in favor of the bottom index as I had the lock nuts driven all the way in for the most slack possible and their was still about a half centimeter of tension at the actuating arm. Luckily the bike is still young I got everything off without tearing the gaskets repaired the wire inside then went to roll my bike in gear to see if it would still roll or disengage with nothing near the pushrod and low and behold the gears catch and she plants her ass.

Now is it possible that the pushrod was jarred and slipped out of the recess on the cam but is still in contact with cam and I'm not lining it up right when I go to put her back together or is it something
more malevolent?

Its seems like the depth of the recess on the cam is exactly the distance that is overcome at the last bit of tightening the case.
Could a thicker gasket be needed?
Am I missing something simple here?

I dont have calipers so I can only rough measure the rod unless I'm measuring only the flat shoulder to shoulder part of the rod and not including the rounded tips also the rod is discolored. It is normal colored where it sticks out of the basket then wear it enters at the port there is a small glazed line the circumference the rod and it's about five or so shades of grey darker the rest of the way into the basket.




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badwolf
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #5 - 12/17/20 at 17:45:52
 
The pushrod being discolored is normal from the heat treating. I had to make a longer one and it took me 2 tries to get the heat treating right. Too soft and it mushrooms on the basket end and gets shorter.
As you look at the clutch with the side cover off, the rod pushes the outside basket back compressing the springs to let the plates slip, spin, whatever and the clutch is disengaged. Without the rod at all the clutch would never disengage.
As the clutch wears the rod normaly doesn't and becomes too long, they sell rods that are shorter for that.
With the cable disconnected, the arm should be sloppy.
If your clutch is slipping and the arm outside the case is around the bottom mark with no freeplay, your rod is too long, IF everything is put together right.
I would check the proper number of clutch plates are installed, in correct order.

Good luck, and keep us posted what you find.
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #6 - 12/18/20 at 04:56:36
 
I had to read your second post a few times before I think I understood the time line of what happened to your bike, so if the summary below is incorrect forgive me.

You changed the oil and filter and used automobile oil. presumably something with friction modifiers that was not specd for wet clutches.

But the clutch didn't start to slip until after you let the bike idle on the sidestand for an hour and the engine got hot enough to blow the filler cap out of the crankcase and eject a quart of oil - approximately half the capacity. You topped off the oil with the same car oil, and rode the bike and it was then that the clutch began to slip, eventually to the point where it would not engage enough to drive the transmission.

I have no idea what getting a clutch that hot with oil containing friction modifiers in it will do to the friction material on the discs but I suspect that that might be your problem.

I think you are going to have to get yourself a service manual. if you don't already have one, pull your clutch apart and take a look at the friction discs and the plates.

One other thing. Does your bike still have the OEM vacuum operated. petc*ck. If so, did the oil that blew out when it was running on the sidestand smell like it had gasoline in it.  A malfunctioning OEM petc*ck will allow fuel into the crankcase and dilute the oil. That won't do the clutch, or the rest of the engine any good either.
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #7 - 12/18/20 at 06:45:14
 
Badwolf
, the wrong number of plates? How often does OEM throw in a free bonus plate? I will check when I split her open this afternoon to inspect the plates and more than likely break out the 220 grit and deglaze them.

Oldnslow,
Im sorry for the confusion the first oil change I got was a proper oil change new filter/correct oil. it wasnt until after the heating up and oil ejection that a three dollar a quart super tech automotive oil was used to replace the missing motorcycle oil.... it was also the only time. i didnt change the filter this time. She started slipping at high rpm so I did my homework and decided to blame the oil so I dumped its oil and got correct roil in it without changing the filter,

next development
the clutch slips but much lower of an rpm and declining blaming myself for not getting a filter..., so I bite the bullet and buy an oil filter and more oil while Murphy smirks at me out the corner of his eye. Change the oil try it out its handling better only slipping at the higher end and it seemeds like its fine for the five minutes from my garage then at a red light, turns Green and my clutch is gone, I'm walking her through the intersection revving and rocking and pumping the clutch lever but no friction.

Then I learn about the pushrod and index Mark's and figure it's about time to handle that neutral switch so I get more oil no filter this time alao correct drain her split her fill her and that's when I notice the pushrod is against the case and presses inwards on the basket as I tighten her back up it.

I have the raptor and my vacc port is sealed. Thank you for your patience I'm a scatter brain
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #8 - 12/18/20 at 07:56:31
 
I would try the simplest solution first; change the oil and filter. Motorcycle clutches are known to slip when oil with moly is used. If this doesn't resolve the issue, you can then remove the clutch friction plates and steel plates and measure them in accordance with the FSM.
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #9 - 12/18/20 at 13:51:18
 
The OEM will build it right, BUT, someone else may have been in there.
When you buy a used bike there can be suprises.
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Re: I'm about to give up( clutch puzzle )
Reply #10 - 01/04/21 at 19:08:49
 
Danny

On my bike :

I put a piece of tape (outside) to mark where the pushing device on the in-side cover was pushing at a 90 degree angle to the rod it pushes.
Then cut the push rod to center its pushing stroke on the 90 degree area.

No need for a thicker gasket :  I use ultra Gray Form-a-Gasket w/no gasket at all.   It works Great.

But , the ROD has to be the right length.  No other way about it.

Did I understand you had 6 quart of oil in your bike ?

There is an error in the shop manual about the "Cupped Ring" while assembling the clutch.   Just do the opposite.   Better than just doing the opposite ... try to figure out why it is cupped ???  Grin

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