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Wait, what?! (Read 106 times)
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Wait, what?!
11/26/20 at 03:04:46
 
Supreme Court relieves religious organizations from some covid-related restrictions... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-relieves-rel...

You guys can not be serious. Amy Coney Barrett is the deciding 4-5 vote to remove Covid restrictions just when the US, daily deaths has reached the levels way back in May of way over 2000 per day, with the difference being that infections are tripled.

But the Supreme Court decides to overrule the local health experts due to a single vote, in the name of Constitutional religious freedom. I guess the evangelicals on the Supreme Ct need to make a batshit cray cray ruling to establish their credentials. Even though kirks are notorious for super spreader events due to the close proximity and lots of breathing while singing. It sounds like an SNL sketch.

Good luck with this one. Seriously you guys, restrictions and lockdowns actually do work. What is wrong with you people.

“From Australia, this looks like a mindbogglingly dangerous chapter in the out-of-control American COVID-19 story,” Ian Mackay, an associate professor of virology at the University of Queensland, wrote in an email. “Sadly, for some, this will be a Thanksgiving that is remembered for all the wrong reasons.”

Australia has returned to a large degree of normality in recent weeks, with mass sporting events and even the iconic Sydney Opera House reopening.
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Re: Wait, what?!
Reply #1 - 11/26/20 at 05:39:26
 
Seems hard to argue against logic.

As Gorsuch wrote: “It is time — past time — to make plain that, while the pandemic poses many grave challenges, there is no world in which the Constitution tolerates color-coded executive edicts that reopen liquor stores and bike shops but shutter churches, synagogues, and mosques,”


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Reply #2 - 11/26/20 at 05:52:35
 
There’s a few reasons why Trump ought to get at least a small rock carving at Mt Rushmore but his court picks, especially replacing the last one.
ACB sounds much better than RBG.
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Reply #3 - 11/26/20 at 06:42:27
 
And if you read through the Opinions, which most of you won’t, you’ll find another argument that cements the fact this was the right decision.

Almost all of the 26 Diocese churches immediately affected by the Executive Order can seat at least 500 people, about 14 can accommodate at least 700, and 2 can seat over 1,000. Similarly, Agudath Israel of Kew Garden Hills can seat up to 400. It is hard to believe that admitting more than 10 people to a 1,000–seat church or 400–seat synagogue would create a more serious health risk than the many other ac- tivities that the State allows.“

Imagine it this way. Let’s say some future Governor, a leftist liberal no doubt, uses an executive order to forbid motorcycles during certain hours of the day using the excuse public services due to the higher incidents of injuries from accidents due to the unnecessary strain on public services such as emergency vehicles, traffic delays etc..   most of us here would vigorously protest (minus the emasculated ones who’d simply give up) and we would correctly cite several Constitutional rights. And we’d be right to do so.

This order from The Supreme Court is similar but multiplied by 10, 100 whatever number you want to put in. Freedom of religion and the exercise thereof is a fundamental right directly expressed in the text and elsewhere in the beginnings of our nation. It cannot be so easily brushed aside. The exercise of religious freedom is an essential service and as was pointed out, can be easily conducted without acting against commonly agreed to safeguards.
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Re: Wait, what?!
Reply #4 - 11/26/20 at 07:06:53
 
When Trump got Covid and he refused medical treatment, instead putting his faith in Jesus, he was miraculously saved.
I'm sure Jesus will protect his flock the same way.

Does anyone else see the irony in the term "flock"?... Huh
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Reply #5 - 11/26/20 at 07:50:55
 
 Why can't a church with seating of over 500 allow more than 10 people to attend?  Did anyone read that rulings supplemental data besides Webstermark?

 Gyms can let more than that in, and they are using the same machines, seating, sinks, showers etc.  They are supposed to be cleaned but the risk level is high as the time it takes to fully clean a machine used for workout (high breathing rates, fluid expelled, multiple contact points) is substantial in comparison to the user rotation rates.

 In a church there isn't a lot of shared objects, lockers, etc.  

 If an organization has the space, they should be able to use it and be held accountable if they violate the law.

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Reply #6 - 11/26/20 at 17:08:36
 
First to answer the point if I have read all the opinions. Ha, as if anyone thinks that the Justices do not twist the Constitution to conform to their religious doctrines. These are suppose to be the top legal brains, and if it's a 5-4 split then you've got four plausibly arguing the opposite of the other four, with one making the difference. They can't all be right. So you pick and choose whatever supports your opinion. That is known as confirmation bias.

Would the court agree that some African muslims have the religious freedom to practice female genital mutilation? I don't think so. In this case there is no religious freedom to infect other people. And further the State has a duty of care.

They often argue about originalism or textualism to support their religious doctrine, yet they will use interpretation when it suits. To use originalism for a Constitution written hundreds of years ago is absurd, that would make the Air Force unconstitutional, as the Federalist Judge have argued in the past that if something is not stated explicitly then it cannot be implied. So only the Army and Navy were mentioned. This shows why textualism is phoney.

Sotomayer, stated it best by saying that this is just not an area that the SCOTUS should be second guessing health experts. Not only that but as I understand it, it's just a stay while an appeal is still going on. Plus the actual Church mentioned already had it's restrictions loosened.

This is just the new Republican majority making a point, I believe to soften up minority who want their religious doctrine forced upon the majority.

The bottom line is that it's health experts who should be making decision on health and these are fluid and can and indeed have changed, by turning it into a blanket 'religious freedom' case, is utter bs, and everyone knows it, but they are getting warmed up for Roe v Wade.

SCOTUS, claim at times to be able to overrule the States even when it says in the Constitution that they States get to say how their election is run, at other time SCOTUS claims the opposite.

But as I said in a different post good luck to you all because as long as Trump is turfed, then all is good with the world again.
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Reply #7 - 11/27/20 at 05:36:18
 
The critical elements were: Can religious services be deemed necessary and can they be held with reasonable health restrictions? The answer to both was judge to be yes. The argument by the minority that the color coding had already changed and therefore the case was unnecessary was weak.

The Sanctuary in the Church I attend is huge, easily seats 300. We could accommodate 100 in an arrangement where no one is closer than 10 feet, maybe more. Try that going to Lowe’s to pick up material needed for that “essential” remodeling project you’re finishing up while working at home.

If the NY case had been allowed to stand and some power happy leftist county executive who hates religion (like many on here do) decided to issue an order effectively eliminating religious services under the guise of safety, what recourse would a small county have? The case here was brought by high profile groups in NYC. What chance would some little group of churches in flyover country have to be heard? None.

The decision was correct.
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Re: Wait, what?!
Reply #8 - 11/27/20 at 05:52:36
 
To use originalism for a Constitution written hundreds of years ago is absurd, that would make the Air Force unconstitutional, as the Federalist Judge have argued in the past that if something is not stated explicitly then it cannot be implied. So only the Army and Navy were mentioned. This shows why textualism is phoney.

Using your logic, an entire institution would need to developed to update laws on a nearly daily basis as technology changes. This is CNN level idiocy. No one thinks the Air Force is unconstitutional. That’s not what originalism or textualism is.

In reality, all of us believe, and our actions demonstrate, our adherence to the concepts of originalism perhaps on a daily basis.
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Re: Wait, what?!
Reply #9 - 11/27/20 at 06:36:16
 
WebsterMark wrote on 11/26/20 at 05:39:26:
Seems hard to argue against logic.

As Gorsuch wrote: “It is time — past time — to make plain that, while the pandemic poses many grave challenges, there is no world in which the Constitution tolerates color-coded executive edicts that reopen liquor stores and bike shops but shutter churches, synagogues, and mosques,”



Churches have congregations.  Liquor stores and bicycle shops don't.
The express purpose of a church is to congregate.
In a pandemic, doesn't it seem important?
We're not allowing arenas to be used for the same reason.
The restrictions are nothing to do with religious persecution.
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Re: Wait, what?!
Reply #10 - 11/27/20 at 07:15:46
 

"Churches have congregations.  Liquor stores and bicycle shops don't.
The express purpose of a church is to congregate.
In a pandemic, doesn't it seem important?
We're not allowing arenas to be used for the same reason.
The restrictions are nothing to do with religious persecution.
"

 I agree here.  While I do question why any of these churches with high-capacity seating can't utilize more of the space, we can't ignore that the purpose is to all get together at once.

 I've found pretty much any law, ordinance etc. that a church has to follow will be called "religious persecution".  A local diocese tried that when they had to add handicapped spots to their parking lot.

 Personally I'd be taking advantage of the opportunity to modernize the church while you can get more acceptance from the parishioners.  Digital sermons are a great way to resolve this steady decline in attendance.
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Reply #11 - 11/27/20 at 09:55:53
 
Serowbot wrote on 11/27/20 at 06:36:16:
WebsterMark wrote on 11/26/20 at 05:39:26:
Seems hard to argue against logic.

As Gorsuch wrote: “It is time — past time — to make plain that, while the pandemic poses many grave challenges, there is no world in which the Constitution tolerates color-coded executive edicts that reopen liquor stores and bike shops but shutter churches, synagogues, and mosques,”



Churches have congregations.  Liquor stores and bicycle shops don't.
The express purpose of a church is to congregate.
In a pandemic, doesn't it seem important?
We're not allowing arenas to be used for the same reason.
The restrictions are nothing to do with religious persecution.


Yes we are using arenas. I saw a football game yesterday with 30k in attendance. They split them out by family groups and distance apart.
Many government office buildings are open and accommodations made. Those were deemed necessary.

The majority found religious services, which is a topic expressly mentioned in the Constitution, to be necessary and decided they could be conducted safely.

Interestingly, the mayor of NY was asked about the risk from BLM protestors gather in such close quarters and his response was essentially “the ends justified the means” To be fair, he’s an idiot, but only marginally more so than the governor.
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Reply #12 - 11/27/20 at 10:00:34
 
And it’s certainly amusing that someone who cried “Muslim ban and religious persecution” when Trump initiated safeguards on countries with lax passport  controls can change direction so quickly.  Again, it’s all partisan.
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Reply #13 - 11/27/20 at 13:37:11
 
@WM, in your answer all you did was cherry pick the judges who have the favourable view in your opinion, again. Why not just admit that the SCOTUS is purely a political tool now and be done with it. Enjoy your 'victory'.

I've found pretty much any law, ordinance etc. that a church has to follow will be called "religious persecution".

This is the salient point. Judges are here to apply the law they are not here to be health experts.

Not only that but as we now know the virus is mostly transmitted by airborne particles which travel over a long distance. A church by the definition of how it operates is demonstrably more dangerous.

This is clearly the SCOTUS, making a point and stretching it's new found powers. Trump the 'useful idiot' has done his job. McConnell probably convinced Trump that it would benefit him personally to install the Federalists Judges.

The chance of Trump running in 2024 are a pipe dream, they'll keep the useful idiot on the hook though for as long as possible. Yes he motivated more people to vote for him, but he motivated even more people to kick him out. It's pretty obvious.
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Re: Wait, what?!
Reply #14 - 11/27/20 at 15:30:22
 
Your thought process is completely corrupted by TDS.
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