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Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection? (Read 368 times)
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Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
11/25/20 at 22:21:48
 
New Rule Would Allow U.S. to Use More Methods for Executions https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/us/politics/executions-death-penalty-rules...

Isn't this against the 'cruel and unusual punishment' part of the Constitution, especially when there is a fast, painless, and certain method that is perfect for countries that insist on murdering criminals.

I hear some States have been looking at death by nitrogen gas, but they can't work out if it's safe or effective. Er.. I think seeing as everyone already lives their whole lives bathed in 80% nitrogen gas 24/7 that it is demonstrably  safe. And not having any oxygen is guaranteed 100% effective after only a few minutes. It's cheap, readily available and easy to procure.

It appears that the only purpose of introducing these new barbaric methods is simply to make the execution more cruel. And this comes from the same Party that claims to be 'pro life'.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #1 - 11/26/20 at 07:40:33
 

Isn't this against the 'cruel and unusual punishment' part of the Constitution, especially when there is a fast, painless, and certain method that is perfect for countries that insist on murdering criminals.


 According to the document:

"or by any other manner prescribed by the law of the state in which the sentence was imposed or which has been designated by a court in accordance with"

 So only if the State has approved unconstitutional methods would it be considered against the Constitution.  So far no method has been deemed unconstitutional, and in most cases alternatives to lethal injection are the inmate's choice.  

 Now is it an ethics question?  Sure I think it is, and it would be up to the people of each State to speak their part, mobilize and either stop executions, or attempt to mandate specific methods.  The people have to do this though.



"It appears that the only purpose of introducing these new barbaric methods is simply to make the execution more cruel."

 My understanding is this keeps executions from stalling indefinitely as Defense teams could claim that the US Government has not authorized means other than lethal injection.  Like nitrogen.

"When it filed an initial version of the rule published in August, the Justice Department noted that a state might one day require executions to be conducted by a means other than lethal injection. The proposed rule said it would forestall potential challenges by prisoners to their executions because federal regulations did not expressly authorize execution by means other than lethal injection."

 18 U.S.C. 3596 lays it all out.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #2 - 11/26/20 at 07:58:07
 
From a moral standpoint, I'm against the death penalty.
We have been proven to make too many mistakes in judgement.
...but, if it's going to happen,... why don't they use what vet's use on dogs?
Whatever that is, works in about 5 seconds, appears painless, is inexpensive, and readily available.
I don't see how this is difficult from a practical view.

Trump is once again pandering to his base with firing squads.
The appeal is baffling.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #3 - 11/26/20 at 09:04:44
 
 Vets typically use pentobarbital which is discussed in the articles already provided.

 I am only against the death penalty due to economic viability.

 I do however think some humans should be exterminated.  For instance one of the briefings I mentioned here in the past was a man who sexually assaulted and brutalized a young child.  He played the "Happy Birthday to You" song each time he raped her so that she would be traumatized emotionally every year at her birthday.  "She will remember what I did to her for the rest of her life." as he said.  He was identified through DNA and dental records as he left bite marks around her genitals.  He bit hard enough to elevate her body, from her genital region, by his mouth alone.

 I don't think killing this abuser through judicial ruling will deter any other abuser.  I just think it will assist in the future emotional well-being of the victim and her family.

 A small price for this guy to pay in comparison, in my opinion.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #4 - 11/26/20 at 09:57:22
 
This may be an unusual opinion.
I feel like we're being lazy and foolish in incarcerating people for life or executing them. If the goal is simply punishment, I respectfully disagree.
If the goal is harm reduction, it seems like there are ways to make an un-rehabilitatable individual unable to hurt others without resort to either of those extremes.

Hobbling, blinding, joint pinning, etc have the added benefit of being reversible in case of error.

It might also serve as an object lesson to folks on the edge of commiting a crime.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #5 - 11/26/20 at 13:29:25
 
What is more barbaric, executing some one who is a danger to society. a person like a mob boss, who can call out hits on people from solidarity confinement.
Or grind up a innocent life that only crime is his or her appearance inside a woman.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #6 - 11/26/20 at 13:53:07
 
Serowbot wrote on 11/26/20 at 07:58:07:
From a moral standpoint, I'm against the death penalty.
...

How does that work,
when you and a whole bunch of tt clone types, are in favor of:
Matchless G11 wrote on 11/26/20 at 13:29:25:
...  grind up a innocent life,
 that only crime is,
  his or her appearance inside a woman.    


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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #7 - 11/26/20 at 14:41:36
 
This has sort of gone the way of an oil thread. I didn't mean this to become a debate on the merits or otherwise of the death penalty. The reason for this is er... oil thread, but more realistically, the death penalty is a done deal.

Not in all States but overall in the US it happens and it's as impossible to see that it will cease as it would be to see every State vote turn blue, or every State turn red.

I was hoping to have a discussion that those who propose the death penalty, either persons or entities, avoid. There is an element of deliberate cruelty in the death penalty as it is currently meted out, and certainly in the reintroduction of firing squad, or electrocutions.

There is definitely an element of the bizarre. However even before advance molecular chemistry was a thing, the French had the Guillotine, which seemed to have many advantages over the firing squad. However again, it's the bizarreness of a head rolling into a basket that makes it weird.

Thusly lethal injected was invented, ostensibly to be 'more humane'. However no one just got OD'd with heroin because it was deemed to be too pleasant and those administering the punishment wanted the victim to be fully conscious as their life ebbed away.

So then we had the macabre spectacles of people taking an inordinately long time to fry, or veins not being found, or the horror of strapping someone to a gurney. Then there were the ethical problems with chemical companies not wanted to supply the drugs necessary, and on and on an apparently, on.

I'm sure we've all heard all the arguments regarding methods of execution and my point is that the elephant in the room that 'answers' all the practical objections regarding method of execution, is death by inert gas.

And the point of that point, is that it forces those who really want to see the execution be cruel and vindictive and macabre and cause maximum suffering while pretending to be humane, are forced to admit this. To be fair, some people do admit it, they are happy to say they want to see the summbitch die an agonising death, but the State is not allowed to admit that because it doesn't reflect well on how we want to see ourselves.

So forgetting the moral arguments about the death penalty and accepting that it's going to happen, if no one can come up with a valid or even plausible reason why execution by removal of oxygen via nitrogen, is not used, then we are forced to admit that the purpose of the methods mentioned in the post title are simply meant to be bizarre and cruel.

I suspect that most people when they hear about death by nitrogen gas would automatically relate to the suffocation reflex as being just as bizarre and cruel but of course that is the conclusion that everyone comes to automatically but as some people know, it's not true.

I've seen some State reject it because 'not enough studies have been done on it'. But that is ludicrously disingenuous because it's not some strange new chemical. Lack of oxygen does no have different effects on different people, there is nothing complicated or unknown.

It would be as simple as just constructing a small chamber with an inlet and outlet where the atmosphere of the room can have it's air replaced with nitrogen in a second or two. It would require no doctors or specialist except to certify death.

So I'm saying that to reintroduce these new methods of execution are a tacit admission that the only purpose of execution is to be cruel and bizarre but no one wants to admit it.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #8 - 11/26/20 at 16:34:12
 
 I disagree that the "reintrodiction" is exclusively for the cruel and bizarre.

 First I'd like to address that certain execution methods predate the containment of gas in pressurized containers or sedation chemicals and as such should not be considered by design to be implemented, historically, for amusement or pain since the alternatives presented here simply did not exist at the time.


 I'd like to see evidence of the following:

"However no one just got OD'd with heroin because it was deemed to be too pleasant and those administering the punishment wanted the victim to be fully conscious as their life ebbed away."

 To claim that the lack of heroin utilized by the State in executions is exclusively due to the desire that the inmate be fully conscious and not due to any other reasons is something I'd like to see evidence of.  How do we know heroin is not used for any other reason and what body "deemed" it to be "too pleasant"?




 As far as I am concerned the information provided in the article here is actually opening the door for things like nitrogen to be used.  

 Again:

"the Justice Department noted that a state might one day require executions to be conducted by a means other than lethal injection. The proposed rule said it would forestall potential challenges by prisoners to their executions because federal regulations did not expressly authorize execution by means other than lethal injection."


 If you want nitrogen, the change that is being questioned actually helps that process be utilized more efficiently.  Changes to capital punishment in the US us not a quick and easy process.  It's too easy to just lay blame on barbaric human emotions and not on the legal structure itself.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #9 - 11/26/20 at 16:47:41
 
Regarding your first point, what other purposes would there be to reintroduce firing squad, when there is a better alternative in every way. What is this intransigence about. There's no question about the effectiveness of inert gas to do the job without even drugging the victim so they do remain fully aware until just before passing out.

Regarding your second point, I'm not arguing about history, my point is that right here right now is a method that addresses ALL the concerns, and problems regarding every other method currently used. What possible reason could you for example come up with to use any other method.

Nitrogen does not have any of the many problems of other methods, like not being certain, or being painful or cruel, or contain hard to obtain chemicals, or specialised training etc.

See if you can come up with a reason, any reason for not using nitrogen other than any other method, IF the purpose is to simply punish the victim by ending their life only.

If nitrogen is not used once the benefits are made clear, which they surely would be to the authorities who investigate these things, then the only conclusion to come to is that they prefer not to use nitrogen which begs the question why?

You see people can agitate for electrocution by pointing out the problems with chemical injection, and vice versa, because every method has it's shortcomings, *except* for inert gas hypoxia. The only reasons I've seen given are demonstrably disingenuous.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #10 - 11/26/20 at 16:53:44
 
"What is more barbaric, executing some one who is a danger to society. a person like a mob boss, who can call out hits on people from solidarity confinement.
Or grind up a innocent life that only crime is his or her appearance inside a woman."



 I'd say both of those are not barbaric by definition but if I were forced to quantify the barbarism of each act I would say executing a live human procedurally is more barbaric by definition than grinding up a fetus inside a woman.  

 Execution of live humans is typically, to me, less sophisticated than medical procedures.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #11 - 11/26/20 at 17:02:28
 


You see people can agitate for electrocution by pointing out the problems with chemical injection, and vice versa, because every method has it's shortcomings, *except* for inert gas hypoxia. The only reasons I've seen given are demonstrably disingenuous."


 Do you have an example of someone arguing against Nitrogen for the purpose of utilizing another method?  All of my information is arguing against Nitrogen for the purpose of not commuting an execution at all.


 The information you provide allows for States to more easily implement Nitrogen, or other methods and also get through the massive Appeals process of US law to actually get the execution done.

 I don't see any information saying the new structure is for the purpose of reintroducing older methods, but to keep Defense team from using a legal loophole claiming there is no Federal mandate authorizing alternative methods.  The issue is that the Federal Government executes inmates, and so do States.  This is legal structuring to keep a loophole from getting in the way of due legal process at the State level.


"the Justice Department noted that a state might one day require executions to be conducted by a means other than lethal injection. The proposed rule said it would forestall potential challenges by prisoners to their executions because federal regulations did not expressly authorize execution by means other than lethal injection."
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #12 - 11/27/20 at 00:14:39
 
Do you have an example of someone arguing against Nitrogen for the purpose of utilizing another method?

Not for the "purposes of using another method" because that no one is going to admit to wanting a grotesque and horrific spectacle. I think any argument against it that I have seen is fallacious and there for it is implicit that it is to use already established methods.

For example a quick search found this at the top of the list https://oklahomawatch.org/2018/07/17/puzzle-of-nitrogen-execution-could-prese... and these are the 'arguments' against it... The prisoner may then have a mask or a plastic hood or bag strapped to his face. that is unnecessarily strange. Either an entire small room just large enough to hold the gurney that is able to be evacuated of air quickly. Or if the victim is strapped to the gurney then a perpsex dome could be lowered over the gurney. Something like that.

But more to the point look at this nonsense ...how it will force inmates to inhale it, what will happen should they hold their breath or resist, and how to ensure guards and visitors are safe from its toxic fumes, all of which could open up legal, practical and public-perception challenges.

How to force inmates to inhale, is exactly the same question as 'what if they hold their breath'. Er that is not possible, there is hundreds of millions of years of evolution that stops this. This is why we don't see anyone committing suicide by holding their breath. it's not possible. So that is one example of an obviously idiotic and fallacious "problem", it's idiotic because you don't need me to tell you that you cannot just hold your breath till you die everyone knows this. But not only that, it's obviously not the nitrogen that is killing the person, so not breathing it ain't gonna help.

State officials insist that executions using nitrogen hypoxia will be humane, although details have been scarce about how the first nitrogen execution would look.

There is no point "insisting" that it is 'humane', we already know it is. In fact the reason that hypoxia from G forces or high altitude is so dangerous is precisely because it's painless and in fact pleasant from what I hear. Details need not be scarce because there's nothing complicated about it.

Then they go on and on about a 'protocol'. Obviously the pre and post protocols are the same, except that there would be less trauma for the people administering it due to the obviously painless death with no suffering. But there's no need to complex execution protocols, what's to think about. The victim is in an airtight enclosure and air is evacuated and replaced with nitrogen. I'm sure an engineer can come up with a design pretty quickly.

That could delay the state’s next execution by months as attorneys take the matter to court, reminding judges that Oklahoma botched one execution in 2014 and used the wrong drug in another one in 2015.

Why? What's the point on reminding the judge of problems that only exist in older methods that are utterly irrelevant ? This doesn't make sense at all.

If there are complications in using nitrogen, they will likely arise at crucial steps in the protocol, which will be written to avoid violating the Eighth Amendment’s ban against cruel and unusual punishment or creating a spectacle that the public and elected leaders would not accept. The entire nation – much of the world, in fact – will be watching.


Again irrelevant. There's nothing that can go wrong assuming that obvious steps have been taken, the whole world can watch, they won't see anything other than someone peacefully going to sleep. There only thing cruel about it is the fact of the execution itself. Maybe a victim might be screaming but they won't be in pain.

What is all this talk about "protocol" as if there's something complex about it.

But a key question is whether offenders would need a sedative to reduce the chances that they thrash about and disrupt the process.

A sedative would no be necessary because you don't have to try and put stents into their arms. They only need to be fixed to the gurney which already happens, and even that is not necessary. They could just be in a completely empty small chamber with padded walls.

Conducting an execution is neither simple nor easy, particularly with a new method that has no track record, say capital punishment attorneys and others who track death penalty issues.

Again the above is disingenuous. To say 'no track record' is irrelevant hypoxia is well understood, everyone know exactly what is going to happen they are not going to suddenly discover by surprise that someone is immune to oxygen starvation.

“Are you going to force the person’s head into the helmet? How is that going to look?”


Again, unnecessary, just use something like a hyperbaric chamber not a mask or a helmet. ferchrissakes. People commit suicide with masks because they don't have access to a proper chamber, not because that's the best way to do it. I think we can assume that the State has the resources to do this properly.

“How do you ensure that the nitrogen won’t leak out or that oxygen won’t leak in?”

Again, use a proper hyperbaric style chamber.

The flow of nitrogen also would have to be controlled so that it can’t escape and endanger prison personnel and observers should the inmate refuse to breathe.

That's just silly. All solved with a sealed chamber. Even a bit of nitrogen leaking out is not dangerous. After 5 minutes, the nitrogen doesn't even need to be evacuated, all that needs to be done is pip some oxygen into the room.
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #13 - 11/27/20 at 06:57:26
 
Eegore wrote on 11/26/20 at 16:53:44:
"What is more barbaric, executing some one who is a danger to society. a person like a mob boss, who can call out hits on people from solidarity confinement.
Or grind up a innocent life that only crime is his or her appearance inside a woman."



 I'd say both of those are not barbaric by definition but if I were forced to quantify the barbarism of each act I would say executing a live human procedurally is more barbaric by definition than grinding up a fetus inside a woman.  

 Execution of live humans is typically, to me, less sophisticated than medical procedures.


So how do you define life? Heart beat and brain waves is not alive to you?
Have you ever watched a abortion under sonogram?

If a woman feels a kick inside her  is someone not alive?
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Re: Electrocution, Firing Squad, Lethal Injection?
Reply #14 - 11/27/20 at 07:31:15
 
 So Eau you break down an article written by by Ben Botkin who in my opinion has zero credibility in how executions or execution law in the US work.  I would debate his nonsense too, but I would not say it is for the purpose of creating more cruel punishments.  He is not imagining bad nitrogen events so we can go shoot or hang the inmate instead.
 
Arguments against nitrogen are not arguments FOR firing squads.  They are arguments against any form of capital punishment, or they are pro-lethal injection over nitrogen.  



 I have not seen any information that indicates the order changes are for the purpose of "reintroducing" any execution methods.  I have not seen any evidence that the order changes in any way suggest nitrogen is not an acceptable method.

 It is re-worded to allow methods other than lethal injection to be used at the State level.  Not "older" methods, but "other" methods.

 You literally are referencing an order designed to free up the use of nitrogen to claim it is for reintroducing more cruel methods.  If anything it is pro-nitrogen.  I think if Biden made this change the argument wouldn't even come up.


 
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