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Breakaway glass bottles (Read 276 times)
Eegore
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Breakaway glass bottles
07/28/20 at 09:44:36
 
 "Breakaway" glass bottles are movie props, typically made from sugar but the ones I purchase now are a plastic/resin mix so we can fill them with fluid.

 I just had a purchase order go through for about 800 of them which means one thing: Molotov cocktails.  

 We use a mix of hydrogen peroxide or diluted ammonia to create an odor to safely replicate a chemical fuel.  This, for me, has been used for one purpose and that is for crowd control exercises.  These breakaways allow us to chuck at full force a bottle into law enforcement personnel at any distance.

 So here comes an ethics issue.  There is a huge chance this is going to be part of a Federal training process where my team simulates public unrest.  We have done this a number of times before, we did a ton of it after the Ukraine uprisings happened.  Given the recent "unconstitutional" arrests and processing of protesters is it more ethical to refuse to conduct the training based off of potential misuse, or is it better to try to improve law enforcement skills?

 I for one have seen both outcomes, but it requires some high level and consistent training.

   
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #1 - 07/28/20 at 10:38:00
 
Turnining away from anything because of the Potential for Misuse is , IMO, a gutless way of making decisions,
EVERYHTING can be misused, And using that
Ohh, But what IF someone Did This?
as an excuse to NOT do something that has merit, is not just gutless,, its also smacks of  what I like to call
Prior Restraint,,

Lets dont train,, because someone might learn something and use it inappropriately,,
Well,, TRaining might just save some good guys from a serious injury or death, too,,
AND,, Now heres the kikker,,

WE have Laws to punish those who do the wrong thing,,
Maybe enforce those laws instead of inhibit others,,
So,, Me to you?

Go toss your candy glass,, and have fun,,

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Eegore
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #2 - 07/28/20 at 15:58:35
 

 The concern is bad training not one guy doing one thing one time.  

 I can be a good bad guy all day long, but if the training reflects poor technique or blatant violations of our rights, am I facilitating personal protection or illegal activity?

 It's about the overall method that influences the actions of the trained group as a whole.  Not the one guy.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #3 - 07/28/20 at 16:00:05
 
Are you saying youre concerned that the training could be teaching
Good Guys
to do what they really should not be doing?
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Eegore
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #4 - 07/28/20 at 16:11:40
 

"Are you saying youre concerned that the training could be teaching
Good Guys
to do what they really should not be doing?
"

 

 Yeah pretty much.  I've seen it before, where the method is overkill, or flat out illegal.

 But I have also seen garbage where the training is not going to help anyone.

 In this case I'm not sure yet, but it's bound to be a Federal program training to interact with protesters.
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #5 - 07/28/20 at 16:23:01
 
It wasn't that long ago we as a nation were prepared to nuke the Communists back to the stone age.
Now they're running amok in our cities saying kill the police.

My training program is simple. Shoot 1st ask questions later.
These are NOT peaceful protesters they are violent Communists that we spent 50 years fighting against. And they want to KILL cops.

So what's the discussion about? Shoot em on sight.
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Eegore
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #6 - 07/28/20 at 16:44:18
 

"So what's the discussion about? Shoot em on sight."

 Throwing peaceful protesters into vans because they match profiles and putting a bullet in the head of that person just to find out that the "shoot and ask later training" just killed a dumb, but peaceful college kid.

 Good training is paramount to good policing.
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #7 - 07/28/20 at 16:48:48
 
They've already expressed their intent to kill cops.
At this point it's a simple matter of self defense on the cops part.

The threat is established you can't reasonably expect them to handle the jackasses with kid gloves now
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #8 - 07/28/20 at 17:03:03
 
Eegore wrote on 07/28/20 at 16:11:40:
"Are you saying youre concerned that the training could be teaching
Good Guys
to do what they really should not be doing?
"

 

 Yeah pretty much.  I've seen it before, where the method is overkill, or flat out illegal.

 But I have also seen garbage where the training is not going to help anyone.

 In this case I'm not sure yet, but it's bound to be a Federal program training to interact with protesters.



Well, YOuve got the advantage of seeing things Ive never seen,, so I have no way to advise,,
I would ask

What PROTECTED behaviors are the Peaceful Protesters engaging in that the Oppressive Cops are punishing them for?

Is there a way to engage in a training program that would mitigate the threats to the cops while not takng away from the rights of the Peaceful Protesters,,?


And when I Say peaceful protesters,, I hope you know thats in air quotes,, and those protesters are throwing fire bombs and crap,, then as far as Im concerned,, Once a Protester steps from Peaceful to doing damage,,
That murfugger just qualified as a bullet sponge,,
Id ya wanna fight,, OKAY,, lets Fight,, and I KNOW who wins,,

So much
Fine Line to consider
Typing it out is prohibitive
Im not wanting to see Americans who have a legitimate complaint that government wont address be mistreated
Im also no okay with people using a Protest
as Cover for hurting people and destroying the lives of people,, wrecking thie lifes work,

Its tme this stiupid crap stop,
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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philthymike
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #9 - 07/28/20 at 17:23:34
 
None of it is about actual justice anymore. Once the antifa terrorists got involved it became purely political. And now it's out of control and the innocent bystanders getting burned out of their homes and having their lives destroyed deserve justice too now. And we're supposed to be keeping them safe.

It's a mob of destructive and deadly terrorists that are politically motivated and who loudly call for the murder of police officers.
This delusion about peaceful protesters has been gone awhile now. The media is beating a dead horse.
In the real world there are consequences. If you attack someone youve threatened to kill then that person has the right to defend themselves.
It's a bad idea. People know better. Trying to juxtapose it as something it isn't doesn't change the facts.

And if it's just dumb college kids how did they get that dumb? They're in college for crying out loud.
They aren't that dumb that they don't understand the consequences of their actions. They know what they're doing. But more than likely they don't know the real reason they have been indoctrinated into doing it.
They've been brainwashed into believing it's a good cause but really. They are pawns in a much bigger game and don't have a clue.
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #10 - 07/28/20 at 17:48:07
 
Eegore wrote on 07/28/20 at 15:58:35:
 ...
 Not the one guy.

So why has one, really bad, football player caused such a stew.
And has received millions in compensation for branding ?

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eau de sauvage
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #11 - 07/28/20 at 18:19:53
 
Let me get this straight, you're coming down to this festering sh!thole of a right wing racist scumbag troll forum to inquire about an 'ethics' issue?

ROFL
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Eegore
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #12 - 07/28/20 at 19:58:35
 

 "What PROTECTED behaviors are the Peaceful Protesters engaging in that the Oppressive Cops are punishing them for? "


 The three from the Mom's group that were arrested with no Miranda readings, I saw the Vector Bodycam footage, and were detained, taken into official custody, placed into medical care with no officers present and then taken back into custody to be released a day later with no charges.  This is effectively re-arresting someone for the same crime, then not charging them with a crime.

 There's a few more like this, and similar profiling ones that are more of a grey area.  

 Again the question isn't what one guy does, it's what the education and practice as a whole is teaching law enforcement to do.  If it is to gun down 30 people to get the one that threw a molotov, there are some issues there, especially given the modern tools afforded especially to clandestine Federal programs.
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Eegore
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #13 - 07/28/20 at 20:02:49
 

"So why has one, really bad, football player caused such a stew.
And has received millions in compensation for branding ?"


 Who's rights did he violate?

 When a football player is trained in football camp that he is not violating people's Constitutional rights and he actually is, or the football camp otherwise develops methods of training designed specifically to maim or kill other players, staff or audience members at a game it will relate to my topic.

 If I am called in to teach football players how to crush the trachea of other players under the facemask and develop a consistent evaluation tool based off of how many players they kill, I think that it might be a bit unethical for me to engage in that contract.
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Eegore
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Re: Breakaway glass bottles
Reply #14 - 07/28/20 at 20:03:36
 

"Let me get this straight, you're coming down to this festering sh!thole of a right wing racist scumbag troll forum to inquire about an 'ethics' issue?"

 Yeah it's called being open to other's ideas.
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