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s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, cause? (Read 653 times)
Dave
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #15 - 06/28/20 at 11:19:04
 
I don't see how this could have been a timing issue between the crank and the balance shaft......as the timing can only change if the case had been split and the crank or balance shaft was removed and not installed correctly.  The cases don't have to be split to change a cam timing chain and guides........find out if the shop split the case for some reason.

 
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BlakeEM
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #16 - 06/28/20 at 14:58:18
 
I'm not sure what process they followed when they replaced the timing chain and guides. I've used the shop dozens of times however this was their first time working on this specific bike, usually they work on high performance stuff.

I do remember it had a rattle/ping sound but the exhaust was loud so it wasn't that noticeable. I was thinking that it was an exhaust leak since we had that issue in the past, same with the popping on deceleration. An exhaust leak changes with revs so I didn't think anything of it at the time.

@dave I'm in San Diego.
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #17 - 06/28/20 at 15:06:28
 
Im mostly on Daves side.. at least 99,99% the rest goes to aliens or some fabikation faliurs!

And I dont belive in Aliens.. but in any case, they have to ruin the bearings or crack the shaft befor it hit the case!
If the shaft is okey, then it is the bearings!
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #18 - 06/28/20 at 15:08:34
 
Yeah after seeing those marks on the balancer I kinda figured you would find a corresponding mark on the crank and/or the connecting rod. If your going to reuse these parts you will need to check to be sure balancer shaft is straight and true and crank halves are properly aligned and connecting rod isn't damaged. So new bike or new engine may be the way to go.
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Dave
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #19 - 06/28/20 at 15:25:10
 
BlakeEM wrote on 06/28/20 at 14:58:18:
I assume the timing went off when they replaced the timing chain and guides.

@dave I'm in San Diego.


There are 2 things that need timed in this engine.

The camshaft needs to be timed when you replace anything related to the camshaft or cam chain.  This would have been done when they replaced the cam chain and guides......you said the engine has compression and turns over fine - so I believe the cam timing is likely fine as it ran for a year after they worked on it.

The balance shaft needs to be timed if the center case was split and the balance shaft and/or crankshaft was removed.  There is no reason for the shop to have split the center case into the left and right halves to replace the cam chain or chain guides.

Something went wrong, and at this point I don't believe it was the shop screwing up the timing......if they did I can't see why it would have taken a year for the collision between the rod and balance shaft.

This photo shows a nice even "squeeze" of sealer oozed out of the crank halves, and I believe this is the original factory applied sealant, as getting the sealer this even by hand would be difficult.
https://imgur.com/K7IIbHg

I asked where you are located so that we might be able to find you the engine or parts near you.  My northern KY location puts me about as far away for shipping zones as we can get.


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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #20 - 06/28/20 at 16:56:41
 
I found another issue, it looks like the primary drive gear was scraping the case. What could cause this?

https://imgur.com/CCwkG9c


The crank shaft feels solid with no noticeable play. Same with the connecting rod and wrist pin.

What was the crankshaft/connecting rod making contact with? It looks like the balancer was hitting the front of the case and maybe the connecting rod, but what about the crankshaft? Where else should I be looking for damage? It got very hot so I'd expect to see more damage.
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #21 - 06/28/20 at 17:18:40
 
I removed it and found more issues.

https://imgur.com/VzDZa9o

https://imgur.com/SXPtibU
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badwolf
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #22 - 06/28/20 at 17:23:03
 
For the primary gear to rub on the case, either the case bent outward when it blew, or the main bearings on the crank are shot, allowing the crank to move like it ain't spose to.
Have you checked the crank bearings? If they went bad that would allow the crank to hit the counterbalancer.
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #23 - 06/28/20 at 17:24:04
 
Wow!!!!  Shocked

Blake, I am so glad your wife is OK.  That could have been a really bad event if it had failed on the freeway.

I agree, the only way the rod could have contacted the balancer weight in that particular location (the lower and deeper rub on your photo) would be for it to be out-of-time with the crankshaft.

A bearing failure might have resulted in the upper rub, but the lower (and deeper) rub had to be timing.

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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #24 - 06/28/20 at 17:25:22
 
Yea, your crank is moving sideways! If it moved enough the gears may have jumped a tooth or more.
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #25 - 06/28/20 at 17:28:13
 
This picture shows the con rod approaching the balancer weight.  While the rod is moving toward the weight, the weight is moving away from the rod.  This is the only position where the rod could conceivably line up with the portion of the weight that has the heavy rub.  In this position, there's like over an inch of clearance between the rod & weight.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #26 - 06/28/20 at 17:32:05
 
As the crank continues to rotate, the rod moves forward but the weight is moving away from the rod.  When timed properly, there is still at least one-half inch clearance between the rod and weight.  And the surface on your weight that has the heavy rub no longer aligns with the rod.  Even if a bearing was bad I don't think the rod could have contacted the weight in your heavy rub location.
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Rod_Close_2.JPG

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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #27 - 06/28/20 at 17:32:46
 
The crankshaft turns smooth with no free-play and the bearings aren't making any sound like I'd expect if they were bad. I'll check them more closely once I get the crankshaft out.

If the crankshaft was only contacting the balancer why isn't the balancer discolored from heat like the crankshaft?
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #28 - 06/28/20 at 17:33:39
 
Under normal circumstances, even at the closest proximity there is still at least one-quarter inch clearance between the rod & weight.
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Re: s40 major failure, balancer hitting case, caus
Reply #29 - 06/28/20 at 17:41:35
 
Could an over tightened primary drive gear cause this and shift the crankshaft to the side so that it skips gears causing the balancer timing to be off?

https://imgur.com/SXPtibU

You guys are awesome, thanks for all the help and pictures! It's taking me a while to disassemble since I need to keep taking breaks to read the Clymer manual so that I know what I'm doing.
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