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Understanding this (Read 224 times)
MnSpring
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #30 - 05/08/20 at 10:50:54
 
eau de sauvage wrote on 05/04/20 at 20:55:48:
... why do you persist in pointing out to him the same types of errors he makes...

Indeed !

Please explain why, you persist in pointing out, if a person stands on the Right side of a desk to change a light bulb, it is wrong.

(Because they should have stood on the, Left, side !)


Grin !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #31 - 05/08/20 at 11:07:15
 
Well, E,, You may be right.. Im not a lawyer, Im Just an Ol Guy, who has a serious libertarian bent and a belief in freedom. Not to say being anything than less tthana responsible for our own actions, but this, what I call Nanny statist need to include regulations and hoops to jump through and monies to be paid for a license to DO what common sense tells us is a natural right, is just beyond me. Just because it has "always been so" in OUR lives doesnt make it right. If you see where Im comin from and kinda agree,, Ill call that good.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Eegore
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #32 - 05/08/20 at 11:36:53
 
 I've put way too many dead people from motor vehicle accidents in the morgue to say I'd agree that the operation of a motor vehicle should be a "right" and should't require some sort of assessment before letting someone loose on public roads.  I recall one of my friends constantly cutting people off on left hand turns at stoplights when he got the green, the very thing that kills so many motorcyclists, and it turns out he thought if he could gun it fast enough he was allowed to make a left turn like that.  All of the high-school kids in the rehab class I assist with have zero parental guidance, they learned by riding with other kids and video games.  The very fact that getting in a car and hitting the gas is so easy is also what makes them so dangerous.  Any kid can get in and send a ton of metal into you at 60mph, and do so without so much as one adult ever passing on education.


 Personally haven't seen evidence that operating a motor vehicle is "Constitutionally" protected as I do not think "travel" constitutes the operation of a vehicle.  For instance I can "travel" by train but don't need to be the conductor.  Should we be able to freely travel from state to state as long as we are abiding by the law?  Absolutely, and that is what Federal interstate commerce laws protect.  However I do think each state should have an idea of how many vehicles are using the roads, and have a way to identify who is operating what vehicle.  

 
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MnSpring
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #33 - 05/08/20 at 11:43:38
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/08/20 at 11:07:15:
"... Just because it has "always been so" ..."

More than once I have told a, Policeman,  County employees, Town Counsel's,
"No, you can not, just make something up, because you want to"

AFTER THEY HAVE TOLD ME, "Well this is just the way we do it",

AND, many, Many, MANY more need to do the SAME thing !
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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #34 - 05/08/20 at 11:57:48
 
Eegore wrote on 05/08/20 at 11:36:53:
 I've put way too many dead people from motor vehicle accidents in the morgue to say I'd agree that the operation of a motor vehicle should be a "right" and should't require some sort of assessment before letting someone loose on public roads.  I recall one of my friends constantly cutting people off on left hand turns at stoplights when he got the green, the very thing that kills so many motorcyclists, and it turns out he thought if he could gun it fast enough he was allowed to make a left turn like that.  All of the high-school kids in the rehab class I assist with have zero parental guidance, they learned by riding with other kids and video games.  The very fact that getting in a car and hitting the gas is so easy is also what makes them so dangerous.  Any kid can get in and send a ton of metal into you at 60mph, and do so without so much as one adult ever passing on education.


 Personally haven't seen evidence that operating a motor vehicle is "Constitutionally" protected as I do not think "travel" constitutes the operation of a vehicle.  For instance I can "travel" by train but don't need to be the conductor.  Should we be able to freely travel from state to state as long as we are abiding by the law?  Absolutely, and that is what Federal interstate commerce laws protect.  However I do think each state should have an idea of how many vehicles are using the roads, and have a way to identify who is operating what vehicle.  

 


Were the people who caused the accidents licensed?

I didnt say Untrained, everything we do that has a potential to negatively affect others, we need to do responsibly. Being TRained to drive is reasonable,, every REsposnsibel person would Want to be trained. How many people want to get in a car and go down the road KNowing that They dont know what they are ding? Reasonable people know car wrecks kill people,, and , Not Wanting to get killed, they KNow they need training,,, So
The Law holds people accountable for their bad behavior.
Since going down roads is so necessary in society, and since school is Supposed to Prepare our young for life, Driver training should be part of it. Its nt as if there arent driving schools for people to pay to get taught, if they are adult immigrants..
Licensed people are the overwhelming majority of At Fault people in crashes,, So, clearly, the license ist exactly a safeguard against wrecks.
No licensing isnt suggesting NO TRaining. I think I made that clear,
Just like I never suggested idiots who have no idea about safe handling and accurate use of guns should ever carry,,
Its up to the individual to live responsibly and not ruin others lives. The Law holds people accountable,,
Prior REstraint by telling people what they must do is BS,,
My driving teacher let me drive with one hand on the wheel and an elbow out the window, because she could tell I was able.. I took off in a 3 speed standard pickup, out in an alfalfa field, when I was about 6.. I didnt spin tires, didnt jak rabbit it, didnt kill it,, drove off as smooth as my Grampa,, and hit second, made a circle,, Stopped, did it again,, The guy I was with was standin in the field, frustrated, but shocked,, I never got in trouble,, because I did such a good job,, they just told me dont do that, you cant see well enough to avoid the irrigation ditches,, But I could drive when I was just a kid,, because I watched what was happening,,
Ive seen others who, in spite of training, they werent wurfacrap..
I disagree with LICENSING,, not training..
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Eegore
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #35 - 05/08/20 at 12:06:09
 
 I'd like to see a driver's license be a verification of good training.  Like a medical or pilot's license.  Instead of just saying someone should be trained, but there's no way to know for sure.

 The problem is that putting together a good program takes money, and that means payment is some regard.  I'd rather people who choose to drive pay than the general public, so I'd rather see a fee for having proof of training over a tax.  Just like a motorcycle endorsement.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #36 - 05/08/20 at 12:11:53
 
You dont need to KNOw if someone is trained,, Not everyone needs it, and some, even with it suck. Its a crapshoot.
OFFER training in school. Its available in the Free Market.
If an irresponsible party chooses to forego training and they cause an accident, they are legally responsible.It Worked Just Like that for a long time. The average person wouldnt ever get in a car and go down the road knowing they dint know what they were doin.. I ouldnt, even tho I felt pretty good about my driving

Let people be responsible.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #37 - 05/08/20 at 13:40:52
 
"The average person wouldnt ever get in a car and go down the road knowing they dint know what they were doin."

 I have no idea how one would conclude this to be true.  I think plenty of people that didn't know how to drive worth a darn were on the roads, but vehicles with a top speed of 30mph on rural roads are less likely to damage others, offer more margin of error and less chance of injury.

 Even if it were true it is literally a process of saying that all we need to make the roads safer is for people to to just start being responsible.  That process won't help a single one of the kids with dead or heroine addicted parents that gave them keys at 12 years old to go buy drugs.  People need to be better as a strategy has never solved any problem.

 By this logic we could improve government by letting politicians be more responsible.  Or we could let politicians conduct insider trading until someone gets harmed.  


 The issue is that as more and more vehicles operated at higher speeds we learned that the old "wait and see what happens" process kills people.  There was a time when one could practice medicine without a license, and after tons of fraud and deaths it was decided that maybe waiting for someone to kill a child, or defraud the elderly, is more damaging than requiring accreditation.  Infant mortality rates plummeted once OBGYN accreditation began.

 So if we know that training decreases, not eliminates but decreases, damage and fatality rates with motorcycles, and planes, and tractors, and tanks, boats, trains, scooters, skateboards, etc. why would we choose to rely on the responsibility of a 16 year old to decide if they need some training or not?  That kid knows if they need some instruction more than decades of driving instructors?

 
 
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MnSpring
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #38 - 05/08/20 at 13:53:22
 
Eegore wrote on 05/08/20 at 13:40:52:
"...  more than decades of driving instructors? ..."    

 Could very well be.
Their are Millions of people that know more about a subject, than the, ‘teacher/instructor', of that subject !
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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Eegore
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #39 - 05/08/20 at 13:56:53
 

"Could very well be.
Their are Millions of people that know more about a subject, than the, ‘teacher/instructor', of that subject !"


 I agree that in rare circumstance, however I do not agree that millions of 16 year old kids can conduct themselves better behind the wheel than accredited driving instructors.

 If this were true we would have a lot of 16 year olds with better jobs.

 This is why I always offer to allow people to give it a try instead of just talking about how good they are.  Typically they decline.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #40 - 05/08/20 at 14:51:31
 
And,one more time
TRaining should be made available.. The school can require that class, for credit, to graduate. I sure as hekk didnt conduct myself responsibly, I was still a terror on the road as an adult.. BUT,, I didnt cause wrecks,,
Had I, I would have been dealt with according to the law..
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Eegore
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #41 - 05/08/20 at 17:21:06
 

 What do we do about high-school drop outs?  My experience is these are at most risk for not knowing how to drive.  The ones I know learned by stealing cars.  What about 16 year olds legal to drive by the State but haven't graduated yet which I imagine are most of them?

 I would rather see a requirement to drive versus a requirement to graduate from a public school.  Also as I said before I'd rather driver's fund it over public taxes.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Understanding this
Reply #42 - 05/08/20 at 20:19:25
 
Well, Its not a worfect Porld,
Ever notice you dont have to show a license to buy insurance?
Im talking about a broader concept.
The ever tightening requirements you offer lead nowhere for me.
How many drop out beforey even turn 16?
Wait, I dont care,,
Nothing is perfect, Nothing satisfies Every contingency
except totalitarianism
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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