SuzukiSavage.com - False humility will not save the planet

WebsterMark

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #15 - 01/06/20 at 16:18:49

Serowbot wrote on 01/06/20 at 13:20:47:

If your solution is solvable...
Why not solve wind, water, and solar?...
I'm sure they can be made more efficient easier than making nuclear waste disappear......

Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much.

Again, key point:

“The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind.....”

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MnSpring Serious Thumper Offline Younger than most people my age. Posts: 9384 Minn Gender:	Re: False humility will not save the planet Reply #16 - 01/06/20 at 16:57:28 No one figures the cost of taking off, then putting back on, 'Roof', panels. Unless, a roof on a house lasts longer than the panels.
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raydawg

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #17 - 01/06/20 at 18:03:34

WebsterMark wrote on 01/06/20 at 16:18:49:

Serowbot wrote on 01/06/20 at 13:20:47:

If your solution is solvable...
Why not solve wind, water, and solar?...
I'm sure they can be made more efficient easier than making nuclear waste disappear......

Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much.

Again, key point:

“The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind.....”

Why can't uranium/nuclear waste be made into a energy source too?

I know presently its doesn't exist, but that does not mean it can't be found....look how garbage makes methane, etc...

Perhaps if it is introduced to/with a different organism, say....like aborted fetuses, it can become safer, etc.....and once its spent, just goes where the dead babies go....???? Undecided

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srinath

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #18 - 01/06/20 at 19:33:44

verslagen1 wrote on 01/06/20 at 14:25:03:

Transmission lines are not solvable unless you have distributed generation such as solar roof panels.

Solar roof panels are usually not sized to generate power in excess of the residence yearly use. But they do exceed the immediate usage. this does offset the peak needs of the power required by businesses.

Thorium power plants could easily replace uranium powered ones and reduce the waste generation substantially.

No, too many many many people live in apartments or under tree canopies or in permanent cloud cover, this isn't feasible without people in WFO country generating the excess and the power grids pumping it back to the apartment dwellers. Of course we could de populate NYC and kick those people to TX and repeat that over 1000 other cities and add in the Pacific NW etc and problem solved.

Cool.
Srinath.

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WebsterMark

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #19 - 01/07/20 at 04:41:02

WebsterMark wrote on 01/06/20 at 16:18:49:

Serowbot wrote on 01/06/20 at 13:20:47:

If your solution is solvable...
Why not solve wind, water, and solar?...
I'm sure they can be made more efficient easier than making nuclear waste disappear......

Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much.

Again, key point:

“The energy density of uranium is three million times higher than that of coal or oil, which is in turn many times higher than solar and wind.....”

I looked up what I couldn’t quite pull out of these aging memory banks.....
The maximum theoretical efficiency of a wind turbine is 59%. (Something called Betz Law) Best wind blades today are between 35-40%. When you factor in the olde law of diminishing returns (which anyone trying to get more performance out of a motorcycle is well aware of) there’s not much room for improvement. All that means is for wind energy to contribute vastly more energy is only possible through shear numbers.

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srinath Serious Thumper Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 5349	Re: False humility will not save the planet Reply #20 - 01/07/20 at 04:50:57 I've heard somewhere that you get enough energy from solar in 1 day than you would need in a year (not sure if it includes driving a metal box 30-80 mile or heating 2000 sqft though) except by the time you are done trying storing its 1/100th what was thrown at you. Cool. Srinath.
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Serowbot

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OK.... so what's the
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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #21 - 01/07/20 at 07:24:18

WebsterMark wrote on 01/06/20 at 16:18:49:

Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much.

How is this calculated?...
Wouldn't 100% efficiency make wind stop and the sky go black?...
I call BS...

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verslagen1

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #22 - 01/07/20 at 08:26:02

Serowbot wrote on 01/07/20 at 07:24:18:

WebsterMark wrote on 01/06/20 at 16:18:49:

Because those are application problems. Wind and solar are already near their maximum energy output. There’s a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of them but not much.

How is this calculated?...
Wouldn't 100% efficiency make wind stop and the sky go black?...
I call BS...

No, it takes into account many types of losses vs. a perfect system (i.e., friction, resistance, turbulence, etc.)
No, the sky wouldn't go black unless the solar panels were in orbit. But the ground would be cool.

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Serowbot

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #23 - 01/07/20 at 09:22:34

http://www.ftexploring.com/wind-energy/wind-turbine-efficiency.htm

Quote:

Wind turbine efficiency is a useful parameter for comparing performance of wind turbines to other wind turbines. Comparisons of wind turbine efficiency to the efficiency of other forms of power generation is meaningless and misleading (which is worse than meaningless). Though that hasn't stopped people from doing it all over the internet. In physics and engineering, efficiency is a way to compare the performance of a device or system to some ideal or standard of perfection for that specific type of device or system. It has no meaning outside its clearly defined mathmatical formula. For wind turbines and other power sources, the cost of energy produced is the best for economic comparisons, but other factors such as sustainability, capacity factor, impact on environment, and less dependence on foreign oil, are also important for setting energy policy.

Wind is free energy... Zero cost input.
Efficiency is of no consequence.
The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not.
Same with sun or water.

Web presents a red herring...

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Eegore

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #24 - 01/07/20 at 09:31:53

Wind is free energy... Zero cost input.
Efficiency is of no consequence.
The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not.
Same with sun or water.

How is efficiency of no consequence?

If it costs millions of dollars and tons of resources to harness that blowing wind then there is cost.

For instance solar on my property would cost 64,000 to install and my electric bill is about $80 monthly, averaged per year it would take me 66 years to break even. "Free energy" and its level of "efficiency" is important when initial cost is taken into account.

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Serowbot

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #25 - 01/07/20 at 09:37:32

Eegore wrote on 01/07/20 at 09:31:53:

Wind is free energy... Zero cost input.
Efficiency is of no consequence.
The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not.
Same with sun or water.

How is efficiency of no consequence?

If it costs millions of dollars and tons of resources to harness that blowing wind then there is cost.

For instance solar on my property would cost 64,000 to install and my electric bill is about $80 monthly, averaged per year it would take me 66 years to break even. "Free energy" and its level of "efficiency" is important when initial cost is taken into account.

How much do nuclear power plants cost?...

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WebsterMark

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #26 - 01/07/20 at 09:59:19

Serowbot wrote on 01/07/20 at 09:22:34:

http://www.ftexploring.com/wind-energy/wind-turbine-efficiency.htm

Quote:

Wind turbine efficiency is a useful parameter for comparing performance of wind turbines to other wind turbines. Comparisons of wind turbine efficiency to the efficiency of other forms of power generation is meaningless and misleading (which is worse than meaningless). Though that hasn't stopped people from doing it all over the internet. In physics and engineering, efficiency is a way to compare the performance of a device or system to some ideal or standard of perfection for that specific type of device or system. It has no meaning outside its clearly defined mathmatical formula. For wind turbines and other power sources, the cost of energy produced is the best for economic comparisons, but other factors such as sustainability, capacity factor, impact on environment, and less dependence on foreign oil, are also important for setting energy policy.

Wind is free energy... Zero cost input.
Efficiency is of no consequence.
The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not.
Same with sun or water.

Web presents a red herring...

Nonsense. The quote was written by someone trying to dissuade the reader.

Here’s my guess at an explanation.

A flame produces light, measure in lumens. So you make a candle and improve the efficiency of the flame. You put a glass around it and further improve the efficiency. Perhaps you construct mirrors to reflect the light to avoid loss which further improve efficiency.

Passing a current through a certain wire of a particular material with resistance creates heat and visible light also measured in lumens. A light bulb! Change the material of the wire and you improve the efficiency. Use an inert gas in the bulb and you improve the efficiency. Change the glass or its shape and you further improve efficiency. Make an LED bulb and you improve efficiency you even further.

Both the flame and a wire with current passing through it that creates visible light start off with a maximum possible efficiency. The wire with a current passing through it has a much much higher maximum possible efficiency.

Where am I wrong?

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WebsterMark

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #27 - 01/07/20 at 10:01:04

Serowbot wrote on 01/07/20 at 09:37:32:

Eegore wrote on 01/07/20 at 09:31:53:

Wind is free energy... Zero cost input.
Efficiency is of no consequence.
The wind blows whether you make use of it's power or not.
Same with sun or water.

How is efficiency of no consequence?

If it costs millions of dollars and tons of resources to harness that blowing wind then there is cost.

For instance solar on my property would cost 64,000 to install and my electric bill is about $80 monthly, averaged per year it would take me 66 years to break even. "Free energy" and its level of "efficiency" is important when initial cost is taken into account.

How much do nuclear power plants cost?...

An enormous amount more! But as pointed out, the energy density for uranium is millions of times greater than wind.

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Eegore

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #28 - 01/07/20 at 10:02:48

How much do nuclear power plants cost?...

A lot, the latest approved reactor in the us is 25 billion.

An incremental solar power system can catch up to nuclear eventually and it will be less efficient initially. In general an apples to apples comparison is hard to do, I just find it odd to say efficiency is of no consequence or that we can somehow harness wind power with Zero cost input.

Building the turbines is the cost input, and the output is considerably low in comparison to nuclear.

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WebsterMark

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Re: False humility will not save the planet
Reply #29 - 01/07/20 at 10:03:04

srinath wrote on 01/07/20 at 04:50:57:

I've heard somewhere that you get enough energy from solar in 1 day than you would need in a year (not sure if it includes driving a metal box 30-80 mile or heating 2000 sqft though) except by the time you are done trying storing its 1/100th what was thrown at you.
Cool.
Srinath.

I’ve heard that too. But again, the energy loss in turning that into usable energy is huge. You can make up for that energy loss by sheer size and volume which is what the academic calculation does with the suns totsl power in a single day.

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