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Big Cam - Web 340b Install (Read 687 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #60 - 12/31/19 at 10:48:33
 
Excellent observation Lancer.  The large header diameter certainly doesn't help, and link that up with the increased overlap and I have a recipe for pretty cobby low-speed ops.

It doesn't explain why the carburetion was pretty good with the old air filter setup.  If the header pipe was upsetting the applecart I would think that the header wouldn't care what air filter was in place.  I admit that I am flummoxed at this point.

The custom header is hard to come by out here.  I guess one diagnostic measure I could try is to install the stock header.  If that cleaned up all the low speed shenanigans I would then have some concrete evidence that the header is an issue.

It just doesn't behave like it's the header.  It's really good everywhere except very light load.  Open the throttle just a bit, just ever so slightly, and BAM!  As soon as you move the throttle just a little more open it just cranks, very torquey.

I've thrown a leg over a lot of Harleys with drag pipes.  This thing doesn't behave anything like a bike with straight pipes.  The classic surging and hesitation in mid-range is not there.  The reluctance to take more throttle is not there.  It misbehaves when the throttle plate is positioned right in the area where the transition ports are located.  It did a little of that when I had the small filter installed, but with careful jetting I eliminated the issue.  Installed the bigger filter and I can't seem to tune-out the problem.

It's still so darned much fun to ride that I ain't even considering goin back to that small filter.

Once again, excellent observation.  You have given me some ideas for diagnostic tests that might shed some light on things.

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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #61 - 12/31/19 at 11:01:27
 
DBM, you might try turning the elbow 90 degrees , that might help balance the air flow through the throttle plate ,  top to bottom,  as the flow tends to hug the outside curve of the 90 and the roof of the intake passage , more so at lower throttle setting when intake velocity is lower and atomization of the fuel on the short turn is much lower ?  That or adding a straight section of intake between the filter and carb ,either might allow easier jetting /smoother running lower speeds?
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #62 - 12/31/19 at 11:55:40
 
As I understand it, he has that mounted inside the airbox and still has that straight section from the airbox to the carb. So there must be something else at play here.
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #63 - 01/01/20 at 13:15:26
 
 The air mass inside the intake pipe , may be slow to accelerate ,if the pipe is oversized . Use of a smaller pipe should increase velocity at lower throttle openings , that may be causing a lean condition , but may limit performance at higher rpms , but if DBM is turning rpms over 8000, he may well be able to except  that loss to have a smoother running motor.
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #64 - 01/02/20 at 07:51:34
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 12/31/19 at 10:48:33:
Excellent observation Lancer.  The large header diameter certainly doesn't help, and link that up with the increased overlap and I have a recipe for pretty cobby low-speed ops.
I think the effect of the larger header is more than that it just doesn't help.  One or especially two pipe size differences is huge for  pipe volume and as a result air velocity.

It doesn't explain why the carburetion was pretty good with the old air filter setup.  If the header pipe was upsetting the applecart I would think that the header wouldn't care what air filter was in place.  I admit that I am flummoxed at this point.
When you went from the stock filter to the large K&N can style your performance/efficiency increased due to more air and air velocity through the engine.  Reducing header size will decrease pipe volume and increase air velocity.  That will also improve carb tenability.


The custom header is hard to come by out here.  I guess one diagnostic measure I could try is to install the stock header.  If that cleaned up all the low speed shenanigans I would then have some concrete evidence that the header is an issue.
I found a muffler shop that had pipe the size I wanted and got an 8' piece for $20, then took hauled my bike to the muffler shop and had them weld on the head piece cut from an old stock header, and had him weld it to the a 3' section of the pipe.  No header on engine so we could test fit it right there.  He bent & bent to get the shape I wanted.  Paid him $40 for his work.  $50 total.  This was about 9  years so it may be double by now, but its quick and you get the exact size you want.    

It just doesn't behave like it's the header.  It's really good everywhere except very light load.  Open the throttle just a bit, just ever so slightly, and BAM!  As soon as you move the throttle just a little more open it just cranks, very torquey.
What was the rpm when it kick in ?  
What was your throttle position from the point it kick it ?
What was the rate of throttle increase ?  


I've thrown a leg over a lot of Harleys with drag pipes.  This thing doesn't behave anything like a bike with straight pipes.The classic surging and hesitation in mid-range is not there.  The reluctance to take more throttle is not there.  It misbehaves when the throttle plate is positioned right in the area where the transition ports are located.  It did a little of that when I had the small filter installed, but with careful jetting I eliminated the issue.  Installed the bigger filter and I can't seem to tune-out the problem.
I don't find that my Harley & Savage act exactly the same regarding exhausts.  The Savage seems to be  more sensitive to the exhaust than the Harley.  One carb-cyl-exh vs carb-2 cyl-2 ext, or carb-2 cyl-2 into 1 exh.   To me they are just a bit different.
 
It's still so darned much fun to ride that I ain't even considering goin back to that small filter.

Once again, excellent observation.  You have given me some ideas for diagnostic tests that might shed some light on things.

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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #65 - 01/02/20 at 10:24:59
 
Batman, the Fastman is correct.  The new filter is located in the airbox.  The flow path is similar to the stock airbox setup.  Air enters the filter element, turns vertical and moves up through a 2 inch 90 degree elbow, then flows horizontal straight through a 2 inch hose into the carburetor.  The flow path is almost identical to the stock airbox except it's smoother, no ridges, ledges, edges, etc.  The idle mixture port and transition ports are in the top of the carburetor bore, just like the stock carburetor.  That would confine the air mass to the side of the butterfly where the idle mixture and transition ports are located during high-flow conditions (WOT).  At low flow conditions, the air mass is sort of piling up against the throttle plate.  I don't see it being much different than the stock geometry, but who knows?

Lancer I know my pipe is less than ideal and a 1.62" would be better, but out here in the middle of the ocean, custom exhaust headers are few and far between.  I have some plans for diagnostic testing that should help me narrow the problem down.  Would you agree that if I installed the stock header and the light-load issue went away then its a pretty clear indication that the exhaust pipe might be my problem?....or.....If I installed the stock carburetor and the light-load issue went away, wouldn't that indicate that the S&S carburetor might be my issue?....or....If I installed a carburetor more suited to a single-cylinder engine (like a VM) and the light-load issue went away, wouldn't that tell us something?

Regarding your questions about RPM and throttle position.  It seems to be more load dependent than rpm dependent.  It only occurs when the load is extremely light.  It's most pronounced on the freeway, where you can get the thing into a situation where you are running completely steady-state at extremely small throttle opening.  Couldn't pick a more irritating condition.  The AlF goes waaaaaay lean.  Open the throttle just a hair and start to load the engine and the mixture returns to 11-12 and away you go.  Put any load on it at all and the issue clears right up.  It's right where the throttle plate is sweeping across the transition ports.  Go WOT from any speed or rpm and it pulls great, clean, nice & rich, all the way to 8K+.

For now, I'm staying away from the diagnostic header change.  The way I have my exhaust set up it's a royal pain to separate the header from the muffler, so I want to try some other stuff first.  This is a good exercise.  Frustrating but very interesting.

I appreciate all the comments.  Knowledge is power.  Stay tuned.  Tongue
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #66 - 01/03/20 at 09:37:24
 
DBM , I will assume when you say 2 inch 90 and hose that we are talking outside diameter ,that seems OK , but you're now entering the realm of intake tuning,  where the length of the intake from the intake valve to the mouth of the filter has influence on boost . You may want to look into that .
           the other thing is the fact that you altered the intake channel inside the head to increase velocity ,that's a good thing ,but in doing so the filler you used appeared to be very smooth on the short side tunnel and turn, not the best thing when you're just starting to crack open the throttle plate as the fuel doesn't have a good chance to atomize into small enough size to mix with the air ,but tends to run down the short side as large particles and not ignite in the cylinder . You may not be lean as much as less efficient , It may pay to install a few small grooves in that area ,hitting the grooves would tend to atomize the fuel as well as direct it toward the center of the intake passage where the velocity is the highest.  
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #67 - 01/04/20 at 12:22:38
 
The ID of the stock airbox nipple is 2.260".  My 2" ABS elbow has an ID of 2.030" so its just a tad smaller than stock.  My carburetor inlet has an ID of 2.190".  I would prefer having a converging inlet track starting from about 2.5" at the airbox and reducing to 2.2" at the carb inlet, but you takes what you gets.  The selection off the shelf at the hardware store is limited.

I suspect my issue is more closely related to carburetor application.  All along I knew that installing a fixed-venturi carburetor designed specifically for a large displacement V-Twin would be a challenge.  I'm actually surprised that I got it as good as it is.  I'll leave the intake tuning to the scientists but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to study up a bit.  Smiley

Thanks for the suggestion.  You got any links to reference material (not on the grooves but on the intake tuning)?  
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #68 - 01/04/20 at 23:17:19
 
DBM , You might take a look at -racehead.com.au  (performance) check out the, wave-pulse-rpm-chart.jpg  it shows 2nd 3rd and 4th pressure waves of 10,  7,and,4% boosts , at rpms  they can be converted to show speeds by dividing by 66.8 (for fifth gear ) if your final drive ratio is stock.  Understand that these boosts are rpm related , and will occur in any gear .
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« Last Edit: 01/05/20 at 10:15:28 by batman »  

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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #69 - 01/05/20 at 11:31:58
 
   Perhaps telling of my setup may give you a better idea of what can be done for intake tuning, my bike is stock except for a Dyna muffler and my tuned intake . I based my intake length on the rpms found for 17 inches.  The actual length being 16 1/4 inches as the length of the intake needs to be shortened by 1/2 the diameter of the ID of the tube ( 1.57 inches in the case of my 2inch PVC s-40 pipe ) , as the pressure wave has to leave the end of the tube before it reverses and moves back into the tube toward the carb.
      based on this the numbers (ballpark) look like this ;
 
                         start

   4% boost    4048 rpm/61mph
                                         max **
                                  4308/64.5mph
                                                         end
                                                     4527/68mph

   7% boost   5192/78mph
                                 5577/83.5mph
                                                      5934/89 mph
                                                         ***
  10% boost  6911/104mph  
                                   7682/115mph
    ****                                              8386/126mph( 8000/120mph)


 **  boost is not neck snapping it eases in and out ,peaking at the mid range

***  the numbers are ball park , as my bike being stock , is only able to  use the 3rd and 4th waves , but top speed is 90mph -real world speed (6012rpm)

**** You should be able to use these numbers (2nd wave)  the speeds shown are more the type you would see on a dyno , not on the road with rider weight and frontal area wind drag.  your results my vary.

 The pressure waves could care less about the diameter of your pipe only it's length. But the pipe you use should be sized more toward the size of your throttle plate rather than the mouth of the carb ,ex; my cv carb throttle opening is about 1.5 inches in area . my PVC intake 1.57 inches in area.  I believe what your using is to large and killing the velocity in your intake , it is better to error on the small side as you will see gains in the low to midrange rpms and only a slight loss at high rpms, if to large you won't see any gain across the whole rpm range.

   All rpms above are in 5th gear ,as you can see these match up fairly well with my intend highway speeds , If I need more speed say entering an expressway on ramp or passing leaving the bike in 4th gear or down shifting,  will bring  the boost on at lower speeds ex;
4th gear -7% boost -
                         5192/71 mph
                                          5577/77.2mph
                                                               5934 /82mph
        4th gear   71 to 82
       5th gear         78 to 89    
              So traveling a 70mph  needing to pass, would be a down shift to 4th and upshift to 5th @ about 80 to stay in the 7% area of boost from 71 to 89 mph .
           I estimate to achieve 90 mph top speed I need to produce somewhere between 33and 34 hP , about equal to a stock bike with a DR650 cam ,without having to buy or install one , and yes my tuned intake is also inside my stock air box, use of street elbow ,and short section of pipe allows me to retain the rubber tube between the box and carb , I moved my Oldfeller's style filters to the outside rear of the box, between the frame posts just in front of the rear fender , retaining the side covers and the bike appears completely stock .
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« Last Edit: 01/05/20 at 15:13:39 by batman »  

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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #70 - 01/06/20 at 13:03:38
 
Thanks for hooking me up with the website.  It's interesting.

With the S&S fixed venturi carburetor I would have a very difficult time achieving the geometry specified.  The carb itself has dramatic converging/diverging geometry to create the venturi, and then I have to use a special converging manifold to adapt to the cylinder head.

The website does offer these nuggets of golden info:

“I have to point out here that its the runner size that's most significant and the ITB should be appropriately matched to the runner both before and after the actual butterfly plate.”

As I mentioned, the fixed venturi carburetor and special manifold render this requirement close to unachievable in my situation.

“This (runner too large) will affect the power at all rpm levels, the intake charge cant obtain enough velocity at peak torque rpm to fill the cylinder well so it will be boggy and unresponsive then as rpm rises and the efficiency of the engine falls and the cylinder still wont achieve the required velocities to pack the cylinder full with fresh intake charge during the valve opening period and the engine will never reach its full potential.”

“On the other hand (runner too small) if the velocity is too high then the engine will make excellent torque and mid range power due to the high velocities but at some stage as the rpm rises the power level will be slightly less than the maximum potential due to flow loss known as choke.”

With my current setup, the engine is not the least bit "boggy and unresponsive", and it is certainly not "choked".  

It has stellar toque throughout the entire power band, and it pulls strong well past 8K.  It's nuts (in a good way).  I just can't tune out this nasty little lean-surge right at the transition from intermediate jet to main jet.  It's irritating, right where I want to cruise.  Crack the throttle just a hair and it completely goes away and pulls nice & clean.

I appreciate the link.  I also have some good reference material in a book Rutly turned me on to; Four Stroke Performance Tuning.  Once I get the carburetion sorted out I think I will try playing around with a slightly smaller intake run from the filter to the carburetor.
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #71 - 01/06/20 at 16:07:21
 
DBM, is your definition of “entire power band”  based upon rpm or throttle position ?
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #72 - 01/06/20 at 20:06:35
 
DBM , I can understand you not changing your intake diameter but you could still try tuning it to length. You might even consider use of a Gadgetman Groove in the area where the carb is going lean.
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #73 - 01/06/20 at 23:30:57
 
Lancer, my evaluation of the power band relates to engine rpm.  If I open my throttle anywhere past 3000 this thing takes off, and just keeps accelerating hard all the way past 7000.  It just seems to have killer torque everywhere.  It runs just fine below 3000 too, but I'm very rarely in that rpm zone.  

I'm very surprised how broad the useable power is.  I figured the long duration cam, with 5 degrees of timing pulled out, would make the thing a peaky.  I'm OK with peaky if there's a huge kick to put a grin on my face.  But this thing is as far from peaky as it gets.  I have to assume it's the compression, but I also think that the epoxy buildup on the floor of the intake port has something to do with it.  I think this big filter unleashed the beast and let the other components do their job.

It just has this irritating little glitch right at the edge of the transition ports, right where my throttle plate lines up exactly with the 3rd port.  It's drivin me nuts. Shocked

Batman, before I start messing with intake tract tuning, I've got to figure out this little hicup.  Every day I mess with it I become more convinced that its related to the application.  That carb was specifically designed for a large displacement V-Twin.  The transition ports are manifold vacuum dependent.  They don't care about flow because they are well forward of the venturi.  The big cam with retarded timing killed the little bit of manifold vacuum that this single-cylinder engine develops.  I think I have met my Waterloo.  
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Re: Big Cam - Web 340b Install
Reply #74 - 01/07/20 at 09:45:38
 
DBM ,I don't know what to say at this point, Can you reduce the amount of retardation in the cam without the valves striking the piston ,and increase the head displacement to deal with the higher compression? would that even help? Is the hiccup caused by exhaust reversion?
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