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On Lincoln (Read 78 times)
NHLycan
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On Lincoln
11/30/19 at 16:13:07
 
I saw a pole that says better than 1/2 of Republican voters think Trump is a better president than Lincoln was.
Let that sink in for a moment.
If we take them at their word, and I suppose we have to, they're insane.
I never expected to see a mass psychosis in this country. Sure, the occasional cult here and there, that's just human nature. But 10s of millions?

I'm struggling for a historical antecedent.

When a million or so people joined the Klan around WWI? The Civil War?  

I'm not an expert on mass marketing or anything like that but I don't think this can end without a sea of blood.
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #1 - 11/30/19 at 16:16:11
 
 Can you link that poll?

 A lot of them are garbage and very poorly devised.  Others are selective to get the results they want.
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Mavigogun
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #2 - 11/30/19 at 16:19:18
 
NHLycan wrote on 11/30/19 at 16:13:07:
If we take them at their word, and I suppose we have to, they're insane.


The alternative is worse than that, and a testament to your character that it didn't occur you when corresponding: their preference for a semi-literate racist vulgarian reflects their values and character.
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pg
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #3 - 11/30/19 at 16:33:57
 
Lincoln was greatly overrated.  The war was not about any noble effort, it was simply about economics....

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Mavigogun
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #4 - 11/30/19 at 20:32:39
 
"The alternative is worse than that...."

Right on cue:

pg wrote on 11/30/19 at 16:33:57:
The war was not about any noble effort, it was simply about economics....


...said the guy who referres to blacks as "colored", and whose ancestors probably got the better end of the slavery paradigm.   More accurate would be to say it wasn't noble to YOU- for non-sociopaths, it was.   The inception of the war was anything but simple, and was not, as you claim, exclusively about economics.   Popular discontent with slavery had built for decades, the Congrssional record making clear objections included ethical transgression and humane concern.   I am not surprised you are incapable of recognizing the significance of those values- or that you repeat this long debunked narrative.
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #5 - 12/01/19 at 04:03:37
 
No Morongogun, my ancestors came to this country long after slavery ended and lived in a northern state.  Yet another incorrect assumption and projection in your perpetual clamor to obtain the high moral ground.

https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/

What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?  A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.  In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.  A key issue was states' rights.  The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.  Another factor was territorial expansion.  The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.  Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence.  The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence.  Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war.

Best regards,
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« Last Edit: 12/01/19 at 11:55:15 by pg »  

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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #6 - 12/01/19 at 04:04:46
 
https://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-...

1. Lincoln wasn’t an abolitionist.
Abraham Lincoln did believe that slavery was morally wrong, but there was one big problem: It was sanctioned by the highest law in the land, the Constitution. The nation’s founding fathers, who also struggled with how to address slavery, did not explicitly write the word “slavery” in the Constitution, but they did include key clauses protecting the institution, including a fugitive slave clause and the three-fifths clause, which allowed Southern states to count slaves for the purposes of representation in the federal government. In a three-hour speech in Peoria, Illinois, in the fall of 1854, Lincoln presented more clearly than ever his moral, legal and economic opposition to slavery—and then admitted he didn’t know exactly what should be done about it within the current political system.
Abolitionists, by contrast, knew exactly what should be done about it: Slavery should be immediately abolished, and freed slaves should be incorporated as equal members of society. They didn’t care about working within the existing political system, or under the Constitution, which they saw as unjustly protecting slavery and slave owners. Leading abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison called the Constitution “a covenant with death and an agreement with Hell,” and went so far as to burn a copy at a Massachusetts rally in 1854. Though Lincoln saw himself as working alongside the abolitionists on behalf of a common anti-slavery cause, he did not count himself among them. Only with emancipation, and with his support of the eventual 13th Amendment, would Lincoln finally win over the most committed abolitionists.

2. Lincoln didn’t believe blacks should have the same rights as whites.
Though Lincoln argued that the founding fathers’ phrase “All men are created equal” applied to blacks and whites alike, this did not mean he thought they should have the same social and political rights. His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust.
Like his views on emancipation, Lincoln’s position on social and political equality for African-Americans would evolve over the course of his presidency. In the last speech of his life, delivered on April 11, 1865, he argued for limited black suffrage, saying that any black man who had served the Union during the Civil War should have the right to vote.
READ MORE: Enslaved Couples Faced Wrenching Separations, or Even Choosing Family Over Freedom


3. Lincoln thought colonization could resolve the issue of slavery.
For much of his career, Lincoln believed that colonization—or the idea that a majority of the African-American population should leave the United States and settle in Africa or Central America—was the best way to confront the problem of slavery. His two great political heroes, Henry Clay and Thomas Jefferson, had both favored colonization; both were slave owners who took issue with aspects of slavery but saw no way that blacks and whites could live together peaceably. Lincoln first publicly advocated for colonization in 1852, and in 1854 said that his first instinct would be “to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia” (the African state founded by the American Colonization Society in 1821).
Nearly a decade later, even as he edited the draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed slaves at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of whites towards blacks, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.” Lincoln’s support of colonization provoked great anger among black leaders and abolitionists, who argued that African-Americans were as much natives of the country as whites, and thus deserved the same rights. After he issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln never again publicly mentioned colonization, and a mention of it in an earlier draft was deleted by the time the final proclamation was issued in January 1863.

4. Emancipation was a military policy.
The Civil War was fundamentally a conflict over slavery. However, the way Lincoln saw it, emancipation, when it came, would have to be gradual, as the most important thing was to prevent the Southern rebellion from severing the Union permanently in two. But as the Civil War entered its second summer in 1862, thousands of slaves had fled Southern plantations to Union lines, and the federal government didn’t have a clear policy on how to deal with them. Emancipation, Lincoln saw, would further undermine the Confederacy while providing the Union with a new source of manpower to crush the rebellion.

In July 1862 the president presented his draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation to his cabinet. Secretary of State William Seward urged him to wait until things were going better for the Union on the field of battle, or emancipation might look like the last gasp of a nation on the brink of defeat. Lincoln agreed and returned to edit the draft over the summer. On September 17 the bloody Battle of Antietam gave Lincoln the opportunity he needed. He issued the preliminary proclamation to his cabinet on September 22, and it was published the following day. As a cheering crowd gathered at the White House, Lincoln addressed them from a balcony: “I can only trust in God I have made no mistake … It is now for the country and the world to pass judgment on it.”

Emancipation Proclamation Hero
5. The Emancipation Proclamation didn’t actually free all of the slaves.
Since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a military measure, it didn’t apply to border slave states like Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, all of which were loyal to the Union. (Missouri actually had two competing governments; one loyal to, and recognized by the Union, and one loyal to the Confederacy). Lincoln also exempted selected areas of the Confederacy that had already come under Union control in hopes of gaining the loyalty of whites in those states. In practice, then, the Emancipation Proclamation didn’t immediately free a single slave, as the only places it applied were places where the federal government had no control—the Southern states currently fighting against the Union.

Despite its limitations, Lincoln’s proclamation marked a crucial turning point in the evolution of Lincoln’s views of slavery, as well as a turning point in the Civil War itself. By war’s end, some 200,000 black men would serve in the Union Army and Navy, striking a mortal blow against the institution of slavery and paving the way for its eventual abolition by the 13th Amendment.

Best regards,
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WebsterMark
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #7 - 12/01/19 at 05:16:33
 
Eegore wrote on 11/30/19 at 16:16:11:
 Can you link that poll?

 A lot of them are garbage and very poorly devised.  Others are selective to get the results they want.


https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/a10nw9wbas/econTa
bReport.pdf
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WebsterMark
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #8 - 12/01/19 at 05:39:09
 
There were 1497 respondents in this poll.
6% of Democrats and 22% of independents selected Trump also.
Those selecting Trump were more or less split evenly across income groups.
The South lead with 31% of the Trump votes, the Northeast had 17% and the West had 25%, Midwest with 25%.
9% of those describing themselves as liberals selected Trump over Lincoln.


This poll means nothing.
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #9 - 12/01/19 at 07:07:38
 
I say useless because 26% of the nation classify themselves as liberals.
In the last election, Hilary won 65 million votes of which 26% call themselves liberal or 17 million in round numbers. Presumably, 9% of that 17 million, or 1.5 million, today must think Trump is a better President than Lincoln.
Do you think you could find 1.5 million people, who classify themselves as liberals,  who think Trump is a better President than Abraham Lincoln?
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thumperclone
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #10 - 12/01/19 at 07:37:58
 
this topic is total crapola

1497 polled = .0006% of the voting age public
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Re: On Lincoln
Reply #11 - 12/02/19 at 12:51:12
 
No matter how "crappy" the poll - this is all part and parcel of the trump strategy.

There is no statement crazy enough that trump won't touch it.  There is no tweet toxic enough that trump won't retweet it.

That "small" 3% of voting age Americans will believe anything you put in front of them, you know, like the flat earth theory.....
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