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Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover (Read 539 times)
Mavigogun
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #45 - 11/07/19 at 10:30:19
 
Dave wrote on 11/04/19 at 16:20:20:
On the right rear stud, apply a small amount of sealer on the bottom and top of the copper washer before you install it, and use anti-seize on the stud and nut.


Hey!  -how are the front right and back left studs/nuts identified on the torque spec list?  Cylinder head nuts?   Cylinder to crank case nuts?  They are 14 mm...
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #46 - 11/07/19 at 14:02:35
 
Cylinder head nuts- 8mm 16.5 to19.5 ft.-lb. (2)
                          - 9mm 21 to 24 ft.-lb.   (4)
    the nuts maybe 14mm . but the studs are listed by their thread size.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #47 - 11/07/19 at 16:45:07
 
The torque list from the document section of this site includes "Cylinder-to-Crankcase nuts", "Head-to-Cylinder nuts 8mm", and "Cylinder Head nuts 9mm".   It's freak'n confusing.  

After reading in Clymer that the 4 threaded rod ends accessed at the top of the head were labelled "cylinder head-to-crankcase studs", I used the torque value from the list here for "Cylinder-to-Crankcase nuts" -removing one at a time, annealing the copper washer, applying some silicon to either side, and  torquing to 5.9-8.8'lbs.   Which, apparently, is very, very wrong.   So, now that all my gaskets aren't properly compressed, I suppose I'm left to just hope that they still seal once retorqued to 21-24' lbs.

Fux-ity-fux-fux-fux.

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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #48 - 11/07/19 at 23:06:49
 
Perhaps you should wait for the answer to your questions Before you proceed ? It is interesting to note that the  NKG sparkplug that needs to be torqued into your head has a spec of 18 to 20 ft/lbs. in an alum. head,  it seals the head against compression too.  if you had gone with that number(20) it would have had you very close.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #49 - 11/08/19 at 00:52:49
 
I felt like a pest with all my incessant questions, reckoned it was incumbent on me to exercise agency, where possible.   I just made learning a bit more painful than necessary.   Thanks again for the help, education.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #50 - 11/08/19 at 05:46:40
 
I've learned the hard way many times ,I think the best thing is not to make the same one twice !
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #51 - 11/19/19 at 08:54:09
 
Finally got to go for a test ride after being away for 10 days; power seems fine, but examining the stud under the infamous cap, there is oil gathered around the nut.   The Versi-plug was well seated, the gasket application seems successful, and the copper washer was annealed and the nut torqued to spec; maybe I should have replaced the washer with a new one -surely torquing above spec isn't a viable solution... is it?
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #52 - 11/19/19 at 09:48:37
 
Torque above what's listed ,may not even be possible , you'll likely just be stretching the stud, and the torque will then return to it's normal level. If you waited too long between torqueing from 8? to 24 ft/lbs  ,( did you torque after returning from your trip? ) the copper washer may have air hardened . You may have to anneal it and torque again.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #53 - 11/19/19 at 10:05:40
 
batman wrote on 11/19/19 at 09:48:37:
...the copper washer may have air hardened . You may have to anneal it and torque again.


It needs be installed hot?   It was cooled, then installed forthwith.

I noticed most of the copper washers were stamped where they had conformed after previous mounting; I suppose, annealed or not, once replaced, the surfaces may not have aligned in a complimentary way.   Regardless, it is heartening to have the cause not be mysterious.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #54 - 11/19/19 at 22:14:52
 
they shouldn't be installed hot, I just didn't know if had delayed too long. It may have helped if you spread a thin layer of RTV on both side of the copper washers as oil does tend to migrate between the copper and the casings.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #55 - 11/26/19 at 06:38:28
 
I applied a small amount of the same RTV gasket used on the head cover.  

Regarding the washers, they were quenched to preserve the softest crystal structure. If the washers aren't copper, rather an alloy of copper, some most certainly exit harder when quenched at specific temperatures compared to when left to cool.

I can find no indication that precipitation hardening, aka "age hardening" is a factor with copper- some alloys that include copper, yes; they typically require maintaining threshold temperatures of many hundreds of degrees for migration of other elements held in the quenching solution, though.  

Metallurgy is so context dependent, and I'm not sufficiently intimate with either that art or the material of the washer to make any absolute proclamations.    I shouldn't have presumed it was pure copper, and just accepted your demonstrated results.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #56 - 11/26/19 at 07:58:45
 
I would not quench the washers , I think that would harden them , the opposite of you want to do.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #57 - 11/28/19 at 00:42:34
 
To anneal copper
Heat to glowing dull red
Quench.
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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #58 - 11/29/19 at 18:53:47
 
Regarding annealing, I have always used the heat and air-cool method.  It seemed to work OK.  Then I got new copper gaskets from Copper Gaskets Unlimited.  They provided annealing instructions.  It seems the water quench is the way to go.  I have attached a jpeg of their annealing procedure.  Since CGU is in the copper gasket biz, I figure they probably have the inside scoop.

Regarding the application of sealant to the copper washers, I have been testing the cylinder studs to determine the best tightening method.  My cylinder base gasket failed.  When I disassembled the engine to replace the gasket, I noted that the cylinder head nuts did not seem all that tight. Those nuts were installed with silicone sealant on the copper washer (both sides).  So while its apart, I decided to do some tests.  

At the specified torque, silicone sealant applied to the washers reduces the stud stretch dramatically.  I have tried three different silicone sealants and the results are identical.  With sealant applied to the washers, stretch drops from .019" (with oil)  to .009" (with sealant). That is a bunch.  Note that the factory manual specifies oil.  If you think that you can rectify the problem by simply applying more torque, I would not advise it.  When you start taking the nuts past the maximum specified torque (24 ft-lbs), the washers start galling.  At 600 inch-lbs (50 ft-lbs), the stretch was only .017".  I quit there because that's the limit on the torque wrench I was using.
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Annealing.jpg

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Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover
Reply #59 - 11/29/19 at 19:02:41
 
As I was doing the tests, increased friction was very apparent when silicone sealant was applied.  The wrench action was not smooth.  It was very evident that I was getting far less rotation for a given torque value.  My calculations indicate that the resultant clamping force is not sufficient to keep the joint closed at peak cylinder pressure of 1000 psig (typical value for a production engine at full power).  

When I finish the tests I will post the results.  It's very interesting.

This is a picture of some of the galled washers.
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Galled_Copper_Washers_2_2.jpg

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