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Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations? (Read 525 times)
LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #60 - 03/13/19 at 11:57:39
 
Definition of democracy
1a : government by the people
especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government
3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.
from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy
— C. M. Roberts
4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #61 - 03/13/19 at 11:59:12
 
Eegore wrote on 03/12/19 at 19:25:59:
"yes. if it's your primary residence, you only get to vote in/for/concerning one place"

 So this might be a discussion for an entirely different thread, but I am interested in how you expect countries to simply not take citizenship into account.

oh, I don't, countries love corruption, so why would I expect a country to NOT corrupt democracy?


 I do believe you are the only person I've interacted with that thinks people should be able to take up residence anywhere they want/can and vote, given voting happens there.


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verslagen1
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #62 - 03/13/19 at 12:29:39
 
There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it.

Politicians are aware of this issue and have refused to address it.
Why? to abuse them of their rights to fair employment.
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WebsterMark
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #63 - 03/13/19 at 12:42:51
 
we force that condition on democracy, it's not an innate part of democracy

I believe that it is.

If I understand you correctly, you're making the point that someone who lives in a community, regardless of how he got there, his legal standing, his income, etc.. is in fact, part of that community so therefore has the right to vote.

I say a very critical word in that definition is the word 'live'. What constitutes the definition of the word 'live' in this context.  I travel for work a lot, but even if I'm in a city for a full week, I don't consider myself eligible to vote. There are some cities I go to often, so much so that I know my way around them as much as where I live. I read the local papers so I'm familiar with the local situations.

So, could I claim the right to vote? My livelihood depends upon the competency of the government of that community so why shouldn't I be allowed to vote?

You may say no because I'm just visiting. Okay, what if I was going to be there a full month? Three months? What's the timeframe for being allowed to vote?
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #64 - 03/13/19 at 15:35:11
 
WebsterMark wrote on 03/13/19 at 12:42:51:
we force that condition on democracy, it's not an innate part of democracy

I believe that it is.

If I understand you correctly, you're making the point that someone who lives in a community, regardless of how he got there, his legal standing, his income, etc.. is in fact, part of that community so therefore has the right to vote.

some could argue that, doesn't every voice/opinion count? 1 person 1 vote right?

I say a very critical word in that definition is the word 'live'. What constitutes the definition of the word 'live' in this context.  I travel for work a lot, but even if I'm in a city for a full week, I don't consider myself eligible to vote. There are some cities I go to often, so much so that I know my way around them as much as where I live. I read the local papers so I'm familiar with the local situations.

So, could I claim the right to vote? My livelihood depends upon the competency of the government of that community so why shouldn't I be allowed to vote?

You may say no because I'm just visiting. Okay, what if I was going to be there a full month? Three months? What's the timeframe for being allowed to vote?


you are arguing conditions of residency, that's what I'm doing....

I still consider Pennsylvania home.... but I live and vote in Texas...  so debating a time period of living in a place that determines residency thats' fair... like when I went to college, I lived in the dorms, I never "resided" in that college town, even thoughI was there 8 of 12 months, 4 months a semester more or less, I never voted in that college town, I could only vote in my home town 3 hours away.

so, if freedom of speech is expressed in a vote...  


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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #65 - 03/13/19 at 15:38:26
 
verslagen1 wrote on 03/13/19 at 12:29:39:
There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it...."

The other night, 'News', on the Broadcast TV.
I think it was Nigerians, who were going to be deported.
Several interviews with some of them,
and they all stated that they were here for 17/18/19 years,
and considered themselves 'part' of the community.

My question:
Is 17+ Years, not enough time to study for the Citizenship Test ?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #66 - 03/13/19 at 15:54:36
 
MnSpring wrote on 03/13/19 at 15:38:26:
verslagen1 wrote on 03/13/19 at 12:29:39:
There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it...."

The other night, 'News', on the Broadcast TV.
I think it was Nigerians, who were going to be deported.
Several interviews with some of them,
and they all stated that they were here for 17/18/19 years,
and considered themselves 'part' of the community.

My question:
Is 17+ Years, not enough time to study for the Citizenship Test ?



I actually agree with that, if you want to stay, under our current laws they shoulda done that, when I moved to Texas I changed all my stuff to Texas, driver's licence, car registration.. etc....  another person moved to Texas the same time I did, they never changed anything, everything said they were from Iowa still, they left a few years later to return to Iowa, they never voted in Texas, I did.
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verslagen1
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #67 - 03/13/19 at 16:07:22
 
LostArtist wrote on 03/13/19 at 15:54:36:
MnSpring wrote on 03/13/19 at 15:38:26:
verslagen1 wrote on 03/13/19 at 12:29:39:
There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it...."

The other night, 'News', on the Broadcast TV.
I think it was Nigerians, who were going to be deported.
Several interviews with some of them,
and they all stated that they were here for 17/18/19 years,
and considered themselves 'part' of the community.

My question:
Is 17+ Years, not enough time to study for the Citizenship Test ?



I actually agree with that, if you want to stay, under our current laws they shoulda done that, when I moved to Texas I changed all my stuff to Texas, driver's licence, car registration.. etc....  another person moved to Texas the same time I did, they never changed anything, everything said they were from Iowa still, they left a few years later to return to Iowa, they never voted in Texas, I did.


If you agree to that then I don't understand why you think illegals should vote!
As "There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it."
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #68 - 03/13/19 at 16:50:35
 
verslagen1 wrote on 03/13/19 at 16:07:22:
LostArtist wrote on 03/13/19 at 15:54:36:
MnSpring wrote on 03/13/19 at 15:38:26:
verslagen1 wrote on 03/13/19 at 12:29:39:
There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it...."

The other night, 'News', on the Broadcast TV.
I think it was Nigerians, who were going to be deported.
Several interviews with some of them,
and they all stated that they were here for 17/18/19 years,
and considered themselves 'part' of the community.

My question:
Is 17+ Years, not enough time to study for the Citizenship Test ?



I actually agree with that, if you want to stay, under our current laws they shoulda done that, when I moved to Texas I changed all my stuff to Texas, driver's licence, car registration.. etc....  another person moved to Texas the same time I did, they never changed anything, everything said they were from Iowa still, they left a few years later to return to Iowa, they never voted in Texas, I did.


If you agree to that then I don't understand why you think illegals should vote!
As "There is a path to citizenship and illegals have decided by their own choice not to follow it."



first, the Nigerians were probably here legally, as in they didn't cross the southern border to get here did they?  they probably came over on some refugee program and intended to settle here or something, why they didn't take the legal steps available to them to become permanent residents and citizens, idk??? that's just be a prudent step if you don't plan on returning to your original country and have that legal means in front of you.  


Also notice I didn't say they shouldn't have been allowed to vote while they were living here...  Just because I believe they missed (perhaps foolishly) an opportunity to confirm and solidify their legal stance doesn't mean that ideally, if you believe in democracy, that people that live in an area should vote concerning that area and participate in government.  

and let's get this straight, this "citizenship" thing, is as arbitrary as any other reason to restrict voting. You don't want input from everyone in your community, only those that fit YOUR specific arbitrary criteria for voting.

so your arbitrary criteria is citizenship....  mine is living in the area under that area's rules of residency.  There are MANY MANY MANY illegals in my area that make way more than I do, and contribute more to the community than I do, they are upstanding individuals who chose not to wait in  a rigged line where if you wanted in this year, you'd have to have had applied in 1997....  Their life, and MY life, is better for them being here, why shouldn't they be allowed to vote?

"Right now, about 1.3 million Mexicans are waiting to learn whether they can get family-sponsored green cards, according to a federal government report. And that’s just those living outside the U.S.

This is how far behind they are: The State Department is now processing visas for the Mexican married sons or daughters of U.S. citizens who have been waiting in line since May 1995. It’s slightly worse for Filipinos who have visa dates of March 1995 for the same family relationship."

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2018/08/29/dont-mexicans-just-app...
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WebsterMark
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #69 - 03/13/19 at 17:50:37
 
If I understand you correctly, you're making the point that someone who lives in a community, regardless of how he got there, his legal standing, his income, etc.. is in fact, part of that community so therefore has the right to vote.

some could argue that, doesn't every voice/opinion count? 1 person 1 vote right?
As I said before, no, every voice does not count.

so, if freedom of speech is expressed in a vote...  
Which it's not....
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WebsterMark
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #70 - 03/13/19 at 17:57:59
 
You don't want input from everyone in your community, only those that fit YOUR specific arbitrary criteria for voting

Exactly. It's not arbitrary however. (and it's not MY idea per se, its the consensus of the established community who gets to decide who votes and who doesn't.  It's based on solid ideas that are more prone to deliver a safe and sound community.

Here's an example. For work, I recently had to join a very technical committee that's beyond my historical working experience. I've been selected to take over for someone in our company whose retiring in a year or two. It will take that long to get up to speed with the knowledge needed to participate. Right now, I am not a voting member. I very well may not be a voting member for years because a vote from a person without the necessary knowledge could have a negative effective on the health of the public at large, yours included.

If you knew the details, all of you would agree I should not be a voting member until I could demonstrate I met the committee's criteria. Our voting laws are the same. The community decides what criteria constitutes a valid basis for voting.
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WebsterMark
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #71 - 03/13/19 at 17:59:32
 
In my mind and the mind of many others, illegal immigrants do not demonstrate the criteria for voting. They broke into the country illegally. There are consequences. Not voting is one of them. Subject to deportation is another.
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #72 - 03/13/19 at 19:56:46
 
WebsterMark wrote on 03/13/19 at 17:50:37:
If I understand you correctly, you're making the point that someone who lives in a community, regardless of how he got there, his legal standing, his income, etc.. is in fact, part of that community so therefore has the right to vote.

some could argue that, doesn't every voice/opinion count? 1 person 1 vote right?
As I said before, no, every voice does not count.


so you admit you are for voter suppression then.


so, if freedom of speech is expressed in a vote...  
Which it's not....


that's not how the Supreme Court sees it...
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #73 - 03/13/19 at 20:02:52
 
WebsterMark wrote on 03/13/19 at 17:57:59:
You don't want input from everyone in your community, only those that fit YOUR specific arbitrary criteria for voting

Exactly. It's not arbitrary however. (and it's not MY idea per se, its the consensus of the established community who gets to decide who votes and who doesn't.  It's based on solid ideas that are more prone to deliver a safe and sound community.

no, it's COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.  i couldn't imagine a more arbitrary criteria, by the accident of one's birthplace....

how is denying contributing members of your community prone to deliver a safe and sound community???   how's that working out for you anyway?



Here's an example. For work, I recently had to join a very technical committee that's beyond my historical working experience. I've been selected to take over for someone in our company whose retiring in a year or two. It will take that long to get up to speed with the knowledge needed to participate. Right now, I am not a voting member. I very well may not be a voting member for years because a vote from a person without the necessary knowledge could have a negative effective on the health of the public at large, yours
included.

right, you can't vote based on your EDUCATION and KNOWLEDGE,completely relevant factors to your responsibility in your new role, not ARBITRARY at all


If you knew the details, all of you would agree I should not be a voting member until I could demonstrate I met the committee's criteria. Our voting laws are the same. The community decides what criteria constitutes a valid basis for voting.


the community that doesn't include everyone......  
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LostArtist
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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #74 - 03/13/19 at 20:08:23
 
WebsterMark wrote on 03/13/19 at 17:59:32:
In my mind and the mind of many others, illegal immigrants do not demonstrate the criteria for voting. They broke into the country illegally. There are consequences. Not voting is one of them. Subject to deportation is another.





and yet they pay taxes, sales tax and property tax and gas tax and this and that tax....  just LIKE YOU

in Texas we don't have a state income tax...  we use property tax to pay for our schools and stuff, so they contribute as much to that as anyone else in the state, the local governments run off of sales tax so they pay that...  their children go to schools that those taxes help pay for...   should they be taxed without representation?  didn't we have a little thing about that 250 years ago or so....
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