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Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations? (Read 525 times)

LostArtist

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Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
03/11/19 at 10:10:36

Let's actually define this...

Conservatives hear this word and think Authoritarian Communisim, aka, USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, etc....

Liberals hear this word and think Democratic Socialism, aka, Sweden, Norway, France, the UK....

All of the polices being proposed by the Democratic party "socialists" all align with policies already enacted in Sweden, Norway, France and the UK.... but yes, those policies also exist in Cuba and Venezuela and the now defunct USSR...

So are we, as Americans, closer to Cuba and China and Venezuela.... or Sweden, France and the UK???

As long as we continue to have fair elections, which the democrats support and republicans seem to dread, We will go down the path more like Sweden, Norway and France, if we avoid the cult of personality trap that ensnared Cuba and Venezuela, then we won't end up like them, unfortunately, Trump and his supporters fully embrace the pursuit of that cult style of governance (imo)

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MnSpring

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #1 - 03/11/19 at 10:25:31

LostArtist wrote on 03/11/19 at 10:10:36:

“…fair elections, which the democrats support and republicans seem to dread…”

That statement just went down the path of Cuba/China/Venezuela/

Especially in light of recent events:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/mar/8/house-votes-favor-illegal-imm...
House votes in favor of illegal immigrant voting

https://www.dailywire.com/news/44440/breaking-democrat-house-votes-favor-ille...
Democrat House Votes In Favor Of Illegal Immigrant Voting, Report Says

Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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WebsterMark

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #2 - 03/11/19 at 10:42:06

A good point Lost.

But, Sweden, Norway, France, the UK were all able to institute socialist policies because the US had their military backs. They spent very little to protect themselves. And those countries are rapidly going downhill. They cannot afford to maintain what they are doing. Plus, the assumption is everything is better over there. Its not.

The it's a good question, if AOC and her ilk gain control, would we look like Sweden or Venezuela?

I'd say Venezuela. The leftist Democratic party don't remind me of Swedish socialist who still have very much a live and let live philosophy. Leftist Democrats are more of a do it my way or else. The Swedish opposition parties don't hate their opponents the way American Leftist do.

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LostArtist

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #3 - 03/11/19 at 11:07:10

MnSpring wrote on 03/11/19 at 10:25:31:

LostArtist wrote on 03/11/19 at 10:10:36:

“…fair elections, which the democrats support and republicans seem to dread…”

That statement just went down the path of Cuba/China/Venezuela/

Especially in light of recent events:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/mar/8/house-votes-favor-illegal-imm...
House votes in favor of illegal immigrant voting

https://www.dailywire.com/news/44440/breaking-democrat-house-votes-favor-ille...
Democrat House Votes In Favor Of Illegal Immigrant Voting, Report Says

so, wanting people who live here to have a voice here... that's anti-democratic????

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LostArtist

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #4 - 03/11/19 at 11:10:03

WebsterMark wrote on 03/11/19 at 10:42:06:

A good point Lost.

But, Sweden, Norway, France, the UK were all able to institute socialist policies because the US had their military backs. They spent very little to protect themselves. And those countries are rapidly going downhill. They cannot afford to maintain what they are doing. Plus, the assumption is everything is better over there. Its not.

The it's a good question, if AOC and her ilk gain control, would we look like Sweden or Venezuela?

I'd say Venezuela. The leftist Democratic party don't remind me of Swedish socialist who still have very much a live and let live philosophy. Leftist Democrats are more of a do it my way or else. The Swedish opposition parties don't hate their opponents the way American Leftist do.

yeah, the military spending is an issue, but we choose that, our military industrial complex wanted that, would it be better for us to continue with that? or maybe try something else?

with the military industrial complex having such a stronghold on us, it would be easy for any leader to use it to control us the way Cuba and Venezuela did/do.

and if any nation can pull of having the best of both sides, why wouldn't it be us? the Greatest Nation ever?

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Eegore

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #5 - 03/11/19 at 11:44:05

"so, wanting people who live here to have a voice here... that's anti-democratic???? "

By that logic should we allow convicted, currently incarcerated inmates vote?

I want people who live here "Legally" to have a voice. I feel that currently committing crimes restricts your ability to have input on certain things, like voting in local and national elections.

For instance if illegal immigrants moved into your area and voted for 50% taxation on your income, since they don't work taxable jobs, would you be ok with 50% of your income going to the State since it was democratically enacted?

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #6 - 03/11/19 at 11:50:37

yeah, the military spending is an issue, but we choose that, our military industrial complex wanted that, would it be better for us to continue with that? or maybe try something else?

You could look at it that way. Or you could look at it like an investment that we had to do because no one else was able to. If we hadn't, what would the world look like now? Hard to say, we can only guess.

And by the way, while Sweden is the crown jewel of your examples, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #7 - 03/11/19 at 12:01:10

Good questions Lost - and predictable answers thus far.

The conservative viewpoint always points to Venezuela as the only trajectory for socialism in the US. It's simply not true nor even in the realm of possibility.

Yeah, they may happen to be a federal republic and have the same voting age as the US, but what sets us apart (among many other things) is our Constitution (funny how the conservatives forget about that at convenient times).

That, and the fact that what's being proposed by the likes of Bernie, AOC and Beto is far from the "socialist utopia".

But why are we even talking about a socialist agenda? Easy - Look no further than the massive tax break the trump administration gave corporations and the top 1%. How's that worked out so far?

Fewer people have the majority of the wealth in this country today. We're getting to the point where our productivity is topping out, yet our salaries have barely budged in decades.

While the middle class shoulders a large burden of the taxes, it sees the smallest return. And it's because of welfare. The welfare that's being given to corporations and the top 1%. They carry very little (if any) burden. (How much did Amazon pay?)

These are the facts - no one is proposing an exclusively socialist government. No one is proposing that the state take control of businesses. No one is proposing we throw out the Constitution.

What is being proposed is that we grant our citizens - all of them - the right to healthcare, a living wage and education.

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WebsterMark

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #8 - 03/11/19 at 16:02:14

Easy - Look no further than the massive tax break the trump administration gave corporations and the top 1%. How's that worked out so far?

Given the economic condition of the USA right now, I'd say great.

While the middle class shoulders a large burden of the taxes,

Above $500k pay 38.3% of all taxes; effective rate average of 27.1%
$200 - $500 pay 20.6% with effective rate of 19.4%
$100 - $200 pay 21.7% with effective rate of 12.7%
$50-100 pay 14.1% with rate of 9.2%
$30 - 50K pay 4% with rate of 7.2
Less than 30k pay 1.4% with effective rate of 4.9%

This from Pew Research.
No one has 2018 data yet. It will be a while and you can't guess what the rates will be based off the tax changes because, once again, there are too many variables to account for.

I found this data for Trump tax rates
For incomes of
$9525 – 82,500 were cut 3% over 2017 10% - 22% rate
$82500 – 157500 cut 4% 24% rate
$157500 - 200k cut 1% 32% rate
200k – 500k remained the same 35% rate
500k+ cut 1.6% 37%

Now, you still can’t take this data and calculate what the final actual numbers will be for the same table as above.

Despite what idiots like AOC and a few one here think and say, no one pays the effective rate. No one paid 90% back in the day when all was great with world...

So more lies cemented as facts by leftist and their media friends, but unfortunately, the rich pay their share plus some.

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WebsterMark

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #9 - 03/11/19 at 16:05:08

While the middle class shoulders a large burden of the taxes, it sees the smallest return. And it's because of welfare. The welfare that's being given to corporations and the top 1%. They carry very little (if any) burden. (How much did Amazon pay?)

And it's that socialist/communist attitude that makes the American Democratic Socialist Party far more likely to lead us to Venezuela than Sweden.

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LostArtist

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #10 - 03/11/19 at 16:19:54

Eegore wrote on 03/11/19 at 11:44:05:

"so, wanting people who live here to have a voice here... that's anti-democratic???? "

By that logic should we allow convicted, currently incarcerated inmates vote?

I want people who live here "Legally" to have a voice. I feel that currently committing crimes restricts your ability to have input on certain things, like voting in local and national elections.

For instance if illegal immigrants moved into your area and voted for 50% taxation on your income, since they don't work taxable jobs, would you be ok with 50% of your income going to the State since it was democratically enacted?

at the core of the concept of democracy, 1 person 1 vote right? and while you feel that some people are less worthy and therefor less human than others. (you'd be creating/reinforcing a second class of the population) I do not. Maybe you'd be happier if only White Male Landowners voted.... but is that More or Less democratic, like on a sliding scale of democracy... you can argue for "reasonable" constrictions on people's rights... but then you're arguing for restricting people's rights, regardless of the merits of your rationale and maybe I can agree with some of those restrictions and maybe I can't with others, I'm not against allowing inmates to vote, maybe then private prisons wouldn't be such a problem... idk.. and who says only illegals work under the table... I know a few white people that work under the table while collecting SDI and they are still only barely scraping by.

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LostArtist

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #11 - 03/11/19 at 16:20:36

WebsterMark wrote on 03/11/19 at 16:05:08:

While the middle class shoulders a large burden of the taxes, it sees the smallest return. And it's because of welfare. The welfare that's being given to corporations and the top 1%. They carry very little (if any) burden. (How much did Amazon pay?)

And it's that socialist/communist attitude that makes the American Democratic Socialist Party far more likely to lead us to Venezuela than Sweden.

how is that statement of FACT an attitude?

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LostArtist

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #12 - 03/11/19 at 16:30:17

WebsterMark wrote on 03/11/19 at 16:02:14:

Easy - Look no further than the massive tax break the trump administration gave corporations and the top 1%. How's that worked out so far?

Given the economic condition of the USA right now, I'd say great.

While the middle class shoulders a large burden of the taxes,

Above $500k pay 38.3% of all taxes; effective rate average of 27.1%
$200 - $500 pay 20.6% with effective rate of 19.4%
$100 - $200 pay 21.7% with effective rate of 12.7%
$50-100 pay 14.1% with rate of 9.2%
$30 - 50K pay 4% with rate of 7.2
Less than 30k pay 1.4% with effective rate of 4.9%

This is highly misleading. the people making over $500K HAVE MORE OF THE MONEY, so of COURSE THEY PAY MORE.... even if it was a flat rate they'd pay more, it's like when you say more white people are killed by cops than black people.... there are MORE WHITE PEOPLE...

This from Pew Research.
No one has 2018 data yet. It will be a while and you can't guess what the rates will be based off the tax changes because, once again, there are too many variables to account for.

I found this data for Trump tax rates
For incomes of
$9525 – 82,500 were cut 3% over 2017 10% - 22% rate
$82500 – 157500 cut 4% 24% rate
$157500 - 200k cut 1% 32% rate
200k – 500k remained the same 35% rate
500k+ cut 1.6% 37%

Now, you still can’t take this data and calculate what the final actual numbers will be for the same table as above.

Despite what idiots like AOC and a few one here think and say, no one pays the effective rate. No one paid 90% back in the day when all was great with world...

but the marginal tax rate, NOT THE EFFECTIVE, everyone pays the effective, cause it's effective, the marginal rate is what is adjusted by these various tax laws, the effective tax rate is the marginal rate MINUS deductions and all the other legal ways of not paying the marginal rate

"In a nutshell, your effective tax rate is the total amount of federal income tax you pay, as a percentage of your total income. For example, if I earned a total of $50,000 last year and paid $5,000 in federal income tax, my effective tax rate would be 10%, even though my marginal tax rate would be higher."

from the google

So more lies cemented as facts by leftist and their media friends, but unfortunately, the rich pay their share plus some.

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MnSpring

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #13 - 03/11/19 at 16:49:08

LostArtist wrote on 03/11/19 at 16:19:54:

you feel that some people are less worthy and therefor less human than others.

Is a Citizen, of the Country one votes in,
less of a human-being than a person,
who is Not a Citizen of that Country ?

NO.

So I am just as good of a human-being, as the, Citizens/Subjects, of Every Other Country on this Planet.

So do I, get to send in a Vote to every one ?
How about just this continent ?
Well maybe, just Mexico, and Canada, which I have been in many times.
And most certainly time my next visits, with their elections.

(So Eegore's Reply #5, didn't explain it ?)

Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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Eegore

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Re: Socialism.... Why 2 different interpretations?
Reply #14 - 03/11/19 at 18:41:41

"at the core of the concept of democracy, 1 person 1 vote right?"

No.

Person or citizen?

Should 8 year olds vote? They are people.

"and while you feel that some people are less worthy and therefor less human than others"

Not at all what I have ever said.

"who says only illegals work under the table"

I didn't. No different than asking who said every Legal citizen pays taxes. Nobody did.

I very specifically asked if people who are Illegal not citizens voted to increase your taxes, would you be ok with that. To clarify I am presenting a hypothetical where these Illegal non citizens are not paying taxes to the State or IRS, since it would be illegal for them to do so.

I do not believe the core of Democracy is giving a vote to anyone in the world who happens to be in the location during an election.

Votes belong to people who are citizens, meet guidelines like legal age, and not actively committing crimes.

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