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How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe?
07/14/18 at 15:39:55

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2018/07/14/ask-ethan-how-large-i...

A month or so ago we got mind stretched by a 92 billion light year across observable universe that is expanding at an increasing rate, but since light speed is the limiting factor here we will not ever be able to see the edges of it with even the very newest space based equipment.

So just how big is the sucker now that we totally lost track of being able to track it by observation? Why is it that each new telescope sees MORE and MORE instead of seeing earlier and earlier?

Why can't we see the start of things since we can now see 46 billion light years in all directions with our current telescopes ..... we who are supposedly inside a 13.8 billion year old universe ???

So this is a chart saying we should expect a lot more to exist beyond whatever pittance slowly travelling light in our best telescopes will ever show us. And remember, space time is still growing faster than the speed of light, with space time growth accelerating faster and faster way out at the edges as time goes along (according to the current theory of the day, anyway).

And So, here is a un-observable "galaxy per dot graphic" showing the proposed math out of the dark matter acceleration factor that is gaining more acceptance with the egghead boys. And this pittance of theoretical "knowledge" is based on what we think we know now, not on what we may think we know in 5-10 years after yet another better generation of space based telescopes jacks our minds open still further.

What does this mean? This new theory explains why we are seeing more and more instead of seeing earlier and earlier as our telescopes stretch out to 46-50 light years radially --- at least it does that much for our confusion.

It also means basically we got NO FRIGGIN' IDEA how big the Universe really is --- but we got some new theoretical stuff that predicts it is HUGE beyond belief (and is getting bigger FAST) and that there are enough worlds out there already for us to move into ENDLESSLY as soon as we can dope out a space drive that can go fast enough to get us from here to there.

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« Last Edit: 07/15/18 at 16:47:00 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe? Reply #1 - 07/14/18 at 16:57:59 We might already have a space drive if we didn't shoot down aliens and dissect them
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Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe?
Reply #2 - 07/14/18 at 17:32:16

We will never know how big the universe is, or how old it is, or the rate of expansion. To suggest we will is the same as saying we will understand the mind of God. To think so is just foolishness.
He says that creation proclaims the Glory of God.
Enjoy the endless variety of things He has made.
One day we will be able to ask questions directly of Him.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe? Reply #3 - 07/14/18 at 21:54:25 I Really don't understand why we are not seeing Earlier. If the light we are seeing is From eleventy gazillion years ago, isn't that like a snapshot of then?
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Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe?
Reply #4 - 07/15/18 at 03:20:34

Justin,

The classical view of the Universe was based upon the speed of light being a constant.

They took the furtherest galaxies and tried to red shift their apparent motion to get the speed of expansion. They worked with novas and supernovas as known stellar "end of life markers" that always have the same color at the same intensity (theory being stars always blow up about the same and the blow ups are naturally very similar in color and brightness as "all you got" major star blow ups are always pretty much the same same no matter how far or how long ago the blow up took place. Fainter is further away and the supernova light is always pure white so any red shifting you see is due to the expansion speed of space time at that particular distance.

They ran the expansion rates they saw back to a central zero point and called it The Big Bang origin point and have used several methods to say it was slightly under 14 billion years ago.

This is not the original number BTW, that original number was factored upwards now a couple of times according to the current measured increases in the speed of expansion as space time (which is now thought to have expand at various increasing rates during the formation and maturation of the universe).

The "speed of light" in space can also apparently vary some when space time itself is expanding a bunch very rapidly in that particular area of things.

Then the latest Hubble Deep Field very long looks just plain flat blew their minds away. With Hubble, the main excuse for building the thing was to see back in time to the formation of the Universe, to use the long eye to go look at the earliest stages of energy to matter conversion since they would be within the range of Hubble's Deep Field longest looks.

Well, they can now see 46 billion light years in all directions -- a total view area of 92 billion light years (which is a LOT further than they should be able to see) --- and what they see is more of the same, not any earlier formative stages of matter.

There are more Galaxies out there than grains of sand on all the Earth's beaches, and that is with what we got for telescopes right now ......

And there is a whole lot more of it than there should be --- 46 radial measured billion light years makes up enough matter that if the Universe was just a matter / gravity situation gravity should have put the brakes on the expansion and it should be slowing to a gradual stop and reversing itself into a Big Crunch, if it was all up to just traditional matter and gravity.

All the old major theories began to erode still faster as the latest Deep Field looks told us the edges of what we can see were going FASTER than expected and were actually still accelerating. And look all you want as far out as you can see, but you ain't looking back to the beginning of time like you thought you were going to be doing when you built the thing.

They built the Hadron Super Collider to recreate the post Big Bang energy Bose Condensate (when energy coalesced to become matter) and that didn't work out as planned either. They keep finding more and smaller particles and have never achieved even a "little bang" even now after they found what they thought was the fabled Bose Condensate was just another particle with more sub-particles making it up.

So, astronomy and basic particle physics are being totally rewritten as we speak. It is all a LOT more complex than they originally thought.

Not happy, them theoretical science fellers, and the advanced college physics and astronomy text books are all obsolete at this point in time.

Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: 07/18/18 at 08:12:20 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe?
Reply #5 - 07/15/18 at 05:50:18

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 07/15/18 at 03:20:34:

Justin,

The classical view of the Universe was based upon the speed of light being a constant.

They took the furtherest galaxies and tried to red shift their apparent motion to get the speed of expansion. They worked with novas and supernovas as known stellar "end of life markers" that always have the same color at the same intensity (theory being stars always blow up about the same and the blow ups are naturally very similar in color and brightness as "all you got" major star blow ups are always pretty much the same same no matter how far or how long ago the blow up took place. Fainter is further away and the supernova light is always pure white so any red shifting you see is due to the expansion speed of space time at that particular distance.

#######

Okay, so, the further away from us something is, the faster it's moving away?
######

They ran the expansion rates they saw back to a central zero point and called it The Big Bang origin point and have used several methods to say it was slightly under 14 billion years ago.

This is not the original number BTW, that original number was factored upwards now a couple of times according to the current measured increases in the speed of expansion as space time (which is now thought to have expand at various increasing rates during the formation and maturation of the universe).

The "speed of light" in space can also apparently vary some when space time itself is expanding a bunch very rapidly in that particular area of things.

########
Well, so, in some places stuff is moving faster than others, so, difficult to grasp as it is, it's not even constant..
Lovely..
#######

Then the latest Hubble Deep Field very long looks just plain flat blew their minds away. With Hubble, the main excuse for building the thing was to see back in time to the formation of the Universe, to use the long eye to go look at the earliest stages of energy to matter conversion since they would be within the range of Hubble's Deep Field longest looks.

#####
And that makes sense to me. I Thought they should be able to find some answers, but it's looking like a ton of questions instead. How fitting!

####
Well, they can now see 46 billion light years in all directions --

A sphere of 46 billion light years in all directions ,
Okay, didn't give us the answers that were expected, but Dude!, what a Frikken Accomplishment. Some of the pictures of the stuff out there are stunning.
###

a total view area of 92 billion light years (which is a LOT further than they should be able to see)

####
How far should they be seeing, if their understanding were correct?
If we can See light that is 92 billion light years away from its origin, then isn't the age of Existence at least that old?
#####

--- and what they see is more of the same, not any earlier formative stages of matter.

#####
If we had ever created matter maybe we'd know what the embryonic stages look like. Apparently ripping matter apart doesn't reveal the recipe.
#####

There are more Galaxies out there than grains of sand on all the Earth's beaches, and that is with what we got for telescopes right now ......
#####
Yeah, and that's coolernshit.

#####
And there is a whole lot more of it than there should be --- 46 radial measured billion light years makes up enough matter that if the Universe was just a matter / gravity situation gravity should have put the brakes on the expansion and it should be slowing to a gradual stop and reversing itself into a Big Crunch, if it was all up to just traditional matter and gravity.

#####
Apparently our understanding of physics isn't quite up to answering the biggest Why of all.. And that's pretty hard to grasp. Mass in proximity to mass, rather than attracting, continues to accelerate away,, chin scratching Hmm moment there..
And, if I'm understanding right, everything in every direction is accelerating away at increasing speed ..
#####

All the old major theories began to erode still faster as the latest Deep Field looks told us the edges of what we can see were going FASTER than expected and were actually still accelerating. And look all you want as far out as you can see, but you ain't looking back to the beginning of time like you thought you were going to be doing when you built the thing.

They built the Hadron Super Collider to recreate the post Big Bang energy Bose Condensate (when energy coalesced to become matter) and that didn't work out as planned either. They keep finding more and smaller particles and have never achieved even a "little bang" even now after they found what they thought was the fabled Bose Condensate was just another particle with more sub-particles making it up.

So, astronomy and basic particle physics are being totally rewritten as we speak. It is all a LOT more complex than they originally thought.

Not happy, them theoretical science fellers, and the advanced college physics and astronomy text books are all obsolete at this point in time.
#####
I wonder how many PHDs have sat and stared at their diploma and shook their heads. They studied and mastered some very difficult things, so they could work out some answers, and discovered the unexpected and unexplainable, using what they had been taught.
It's these things that I would be willing to live longer to find out.

Roll Eyes

Thank you for your response.

If you stick an explosive on a tall stick
You can film and track individual parts of it as it scatters. You can calculate where center was, based on the trajectory of the bits and pieces, even if you can't see it. But apparently that's not how it goes
Out There..

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe? Reply #6 - 07/15/18 at 05:57:31 The classical view of the Universe was based upon the speed of light being a constant. Yeah, C isn't constant.. And that's Weird. So, if C isn't constant, how much can it change and does it materially alter the 92billion light years calculation? Just so much to try to understand..
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Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe?
Reply #7 - 07/18/18 at 08:23:14

Simplify it a bit for ease of comprehension.

Our classical E=MC² viewpoint applies just fine on a local level. Think of us sitting in the club car of a speeding train, drinking and eating works just fine and we always hit our mouths.

Now complicate it a bit by considering the train is running 75-80 mph down the tracks. That forkful of food is going 79.450 mph relative to the ground and your mouth is only moving 79.495 mph so the collision is about normal fork to mouth speed.

Now expand space time in that area at a rate of a third to half the speed of light (speed compared to what, he says, very rightfully so. The Big Bang Centerpoint is the only stable reference point they can use).

There are some theories that say space time can expand faster than the speed of light and it did so early on, since EXPANSION of nothing into something really has no speed limitations we are aware of.

What this might do to the flow of time while you are doing it makes my head boggle some, so I tend not to think about it very much ..... Tongue

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28362 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe? Reply #8 - 07/18/18 at 08:42:10
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe? Reply #9 - 07/18/18 at 13:22:45 Yeah, figuring out the whole space/time thing on a purely local level is proving challenging enough, so, until someone can point to the B.B. Center Point, I'm just gonna not worry about it. I enjoyed reading your take on it.
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Re: How big is the UNOBSERVABLE universe?
Reply #10 - 07/18/18 at 15:05:51

Space & Time; matter & anti-matter; speed of light & assorted things; yea, well, everything comes back to where did all of this stuff that makes up all of this stuff come from ? Matter and energy ... actually it all is just energy. Matter is just a form of energy. So the question is: Where did all of this energy come from ? And you know, there is a LOT of it out there. And who controls it ? Who keeps everything working in an orderly manner ? Why doesn't everything just go ka-boom ? Look at an atom, in the center is the nucleus which is made up of protons and neutrons. Everything we know about energy and attraction and repulsion, tells us that the nucleus should not exist. With all of those protons in the center it should instantly come apart as the protons push away from each other. But they don't. Why ? It takes a whole lot of effort to crack that sucker, and when we do there is a very big bang. Imagine if all of the nucleuses everywhere suddenly came apart...that would be the FINAL BIG BANG. There would be nothing left at all. one giant FIRE BALL.

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