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Stock Carb Slide Mod (Read 372 times)
DragBikeMike
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Stock Carb Slide Mod
04/12/18 at 17:03:29
 
The stock carburetor receives a lot of discussion in this forum.  It almost feels like it is connected to the twist grip with a rubber band instead of a braided steel cable.  The response is poor to say the least.  In addition, the low speed, transition and mid-range circuits are grossly lean.  All sorts of surge, hiccups, poor response and afterfire.  It improves a bit once warmed up but overall, it’s anemic.

I have seen lots of jet kits that utilize softer slide springs and enlarged vacuum ports in the slide.  I haven’t seen those mods discussed herein so I decided to give them a whirl.

I started by cleaning up the lean spots using mods frequently discussed in this forum.  I will elaborate with additional posts with pictures.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #1 - 04/12/18 at 17:06:49
 
I started by cleaning up the lean spots using mods frequently discussed in this forum.  I uncovered the idle mixture screw so it could be adjusted, I enlarged the stock #52 pilot jet (.019”) by drilling out with a #75 drill (.021”), and I raised the slide needle by installing a .060” washer in place of the stock nylon washer (.113”).

Here is a picture of the pilot jet drill work:

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #2 - 04/12/18 at 17:10:08
 
I know that many folks frown on drilling a jet, but I have drilled dozens of pilot jets with absolutely no adverse effect.  Now a main jet, I don't drill those.

Here is a picture of the needle spacer replacement:

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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #3 - 04/12/18 at 17:13:26
 
Best idle was achieved at 1-3/8 turns out.  As expected, it was a quantum leap from the as-delivered condition. Easy starting, good smooth idle, no more surge, almost no afterfire.  Everything’s better….except the twist grip still felt disconnected from the carb.  Turn, wait, go.

I figured a softer slide spring would result in quicker response.  I tied off several of the coils with thin nylon chord to shorten the spring & reduce preload.  Stock spring free length is 6-15/16”.  With the coils tied off the free length was reduced to 5-3/4”.  I installed the spring with the tied off section down in the slide.

Here is a picture of the shortened spring:


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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #4 - 04/12/18 at 17:15:42
 
Results: It sorta kinda felt like it might have improved.  Hard to tell.  Let's
try some more.  I reduced the free length to 5-1/8”.

Here is a picture of the even shorter spring:


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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #5 - 04/12/18 at 17:22:08
 
Results: Not good.  If anything, the response was a little worse than the stock spring.  

After giving it some thought, I concluded that softening the spring is the wrong approach to better response.  The variable slide adjusts the size of the venture to the optimum position necessary to maintain velocity.  The vacuum signal ported to the area above the diaphragm is proportional to the velocity.  The spring opposes the lift force applied by the diaphragm.  If you soften the spring the slide assumes a higher position at a given air flow, and in turn results in lower velocity, which in turn results in a less responsive system.

Let’s try the vacuum port concept.  The stock slide has two vacuum ports in the bottom.  A #40 drill bit just fits into each port so the ports are .096” diameter.  A new slide costs around $125 so I was reluctant to just hack away.  I checked the screw holes for the slide needle retainer plate.  A #38 drill just fits.  I left one of the screws out to act as an additional vacuum port and tried again.

Note:  Make sure both screws are tight.  Then remove one while leaving the other tight.  The single screw is more than adequate to hold the retainer in place for a quick test.

here is a shot of the screws that hold the plate in place:


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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #6 - 04/12/18 at 17:27:46
 
Results:  My seat-o-da-pants evaluation says that the response is significantly improved.  The twist grip now feels solidly connected to the throttle plate.  The roll-ons are very nice.

Disassembled and drilled a #36 hole in the bottom of the slide.  I installed the slide needle retainer on the bottom of the slide to use as a template.  There is one unused notch in the retainer so that’s the location I used for the new hole.  By drilling with the retainer used as a template, you will be sure that the new hole lines up correctly with the retainer when everything is reassembled.  I strongly advise that you use a drill press so that the hole is exactly perpendicular to the bottom of the slide.  This well ensure proper alignment with the retainer plate notch.

I think this mod works pretty good.

Here is a shot of the bottom of the modified slide:
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #7 - 04/12/18 at 17:28:46
 
Here is a shot of the top of the modified slide:

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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #8 - 04/12/18 at 17:35:17
 
Keep in mind that you can test these modifications without doing any sort of permanent alteration.  I didn't like the shorter spring, so I simply removed the nylon cord and it was back to the stock configuration.  I liked the results of the additional vacuum port created when I left one screw out, so I reinstalled the screw and drilled a permanent hole.  I can still reverse the hole by simply tapping to 6-32 and installing a third screw.  If any of you have tried either of these mods, or if you try them in the future, LMK if you like the results.
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #9 - 04/13/18 at 02:56:10
 
Glad you gave this a try and the results are promising.

Drilling jets doesn't scare me - the only issue is that most folks don't have jet drills or reamers or gauges.  Your mixture screw ended up very near the 1.5 - 2 turns that is specified as the range that indicates the pilot jet is the correct size.

Since you are qualified to experiment - can you figure out a way to make the TEV valve provide a bit more fuel?  That will help to eliminate the popping/banging when folks close the throttle between shifts or when compression braking.
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #10 - 04/13/18 at 11:00:49
 
   Well I have done all the mods you listed ,except drilling the pilot jet (the stock jet being good at my elevation ) Dave mentioned a  mod to the TEV valve , I have removed about 1/3 of a coil on the spring at a time until the proper valve action was attained  , (keeping the cut end outboard to avoid damage to the diaphragm ) opening the valve a bit earlier and closing it a bit later, tends to reduce afterfire from the muffler.  Looking at the intake as a system, you may want to tune intake runner length ,I've boosted EV by 4-7% in some rpm ranges  and these boosts are rpm dependent and occur in all gears. You may want to check out Gadgetman grove (which I just completed -my version as yet untested) and Singh groves and their possible improvement to performance.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #11 - 04/13/18 at 22:56:52
 
I will take on that TEV valve (I call it the coasting enricher system).  

My understanding of that assembly is that under normal steady state and acceleration the spool valve is parked and air to the pilot and transition circuits is provided via the #230 pilot air bleed and #45 air bleed jet, located in the dome below the diaphragm.  When manifold vacuum spikes during deceleration, the high vacuum acts on the TEV diaphragm to overcome the spring and shuttle the spool valve over the port that connects the #230 pilot valve to the pilot & transition circuits.  Under the high vacuum condition, the pilot and transition circuit receives air only via the #45 air bleed jet.  When I had the carburetor apart, I measured that #45 air bleed.  It was greater than .016" and less than .018".  That's pretty small.  I didn't measure the threads on the jet.  Does anyone know if these jets are available?  Installing a smaller one will make the mixture richer on hard deceleration.

I think Batman's spring mod probably has merit, but also imagine it would be easy to go a bit too far and end up with that #230 air bleed covered up under normal driving conditions.

I will test the spring and determine what the preload is with the TEV valve in the parked position.  Then can compare to diaphragm area and figure out how much vacuum is necessary to shuttle the valve.  I will also do an operational test with a vacuum gage & damper to determine average driving vacuum and deceleration vacuum.  We can get a better idea of where the spring should be set.

As I mentioned earlier, deceleration mixture can be made richer by installing a smaller air bleed jet (maybe a #40 or #35) if they are available.  I have noted that on earlier models (86-88 & 95) the illustrated parts breakdown only shows one air bleed in the dome (a #70) and the TEV valve is incorporated.  Those older models may have used a system where the TEV closed off ALL the air bleed.  Maybe I will try plugging the #45 entirely just to test it and see how it works.

Wish me luck.

Hey Batman, in your opinion, how did the additional vacuum port in the bottom of the slide work?  Do you feel that it improved the way the throttle responds to the twist grip?  Does it feel more connected?

BTW, I checked out the YouTube vids on Gadgetman's groove.  I am absolutely reluctant to turning a die grinder loose on that $525 carb.  Do you happen to have any drawings or sketches that show exactly how that groove is configured?  You know, depth, width, angles, etc.  Have you incorporated it into your carb?  If so, was it hard to do, did it work good?
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #12 - 04/13/18 at 23:11:44
 
Oooooooops!  Sorry Batman, I missed the comment that stated you had completed, but not yet tested, the groove.  Let us know how it works.

Best regards, DBM
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #13 - 04/14/18 at 09:04:52
 
Yes,  opening the vacuum ports made the throttle response seem much faster, but I caution anyone to go very slow when enlarging them ,you can easily make them to large , at the same time I trimmed the spring on the TEV valve to compensate for the faster slide movement, again going slowly 1/3 of a turn at a time . If you measure the TEV spring before cutting and go to far you could add a small washer to restore spring length.I have also done a mod to the bottom front edge of the slide facing the air filter slightly easing it's rather blunt edge ,hoping to increase air flow speed at part throttle. One might also ask themselves why the leading and following edges of the throttle plate and the shaft (and screws that seem to long)and the plate it's mounted to have such square edges ? and if eased might help produce a more laminar flow.I have also reduced the throttle return spring by one coil to lower wrist strain at steady highway speeds
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« Last Edit: 04/15/18 at 10:21:05 by batman »  

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Slide Mod
Reply #14 - 04/15/18 at 12:09:43
 
I finished an evaluation of the TEV and came up with some interesting results.  I will provide all the details in a separate post.  Bottom line, you can completely plug the #45 jet with no adverse effects.  Mine ran fine with the jet plugged, but mine hardly exhibited any tendency to afterfire before I plugged the jet so it was difficult for me to determine if there was any improvement.  I left it plugged since it runs real good.

The spring is right on the ragged edge.  If you shorten it by 1/8" it will only leave about 0.5" Hg margin over entering idle vacuum zone (i.e. the pilot air bleed might be shut off at idle).  If you shorten by 1/4" it will most likely close off the air bleed when the engine is idling.

I believe closing off the #45 jet should greatly improve any afterfire problems under normal driving conditions.  Shortening the spring a bit should improve any afterfire issues when blipping the throttle.  Will elaborate in my TEV post.
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