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Windows on ARM has new limitations
02/17/18 at 01:32:04
 

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-outlines-the-limitations-of-windows-on-...





Microsoft does to Qualcomm what it always does to junior partners ..... use them for some early PR then drop them into the gutter at the last minute.


Slowly but surely, all of our questions are being answered regarding Microsoft's latest endeavor to get Windows 10 running on ARM processors. First announced in December 2016, the company surprised everyone by partnering with Qualcomm in an effort to get Win32 apps running on ARM chips. A year later, the first devices to use the Snapdragon 835 chipset were announced, but those won't come to market until this spring.

In other words, very few people have actually used one of these devices, so we're still relying on Microsoft and OEMs to tell us what to expect. This week though, Microsoft published some documentation regarding Windows 10 on ARM, and it described the limitations of the new platform.

Just in case you don't remember Windows RT, that was the company's last attempt at Windows on ARM. Based on Windows 8, users could only use apps built for the Store. Windows 10 on ARM is quite different. These devices ship with Windows 10 S, so they still run apps from the Store, although the Windows 10 Store now takes Win32 apps that are packaged for it, and there's also a free upgrade path to Windows 10 Pro.

But with Windows RT still fresh on many people's mind, we're still all curious about what the limitations of Windows 10 on ARM will be.

x64 apps won't work
The lack of support for 64-bit Win32 apps has been known for some time. The reason for this is because the emulation that Windows on ARM uses to get Win32 apps working on ARM processors is actually the same emulation layer (Windows on Windows, or WoW) that Microsoft uses to get x86 apps running on x64 machines.

Developers may also want to call IsWow64Process2 from their apps. The original IsWow64Process was used to tell if a 32-bit app was running on a 64-bit machine. Obviously, these were meant for PCs with Intel chips, so apps might be made to direct the user to download and install the 64-bit version if the app detects that the PC supports it. Of course, the new ARM64 machines are indeed 64-bit, which means that developers will want to switch to the new API.

There's no Hyper-V
One of the key features of Windows 10 Pro, or the version of Pro known as Windows 10 S, is Hyper-V. This allows users to create virtual machines, similar to a number of third-party options. Hyper-V on ARM isn't supported, and according to the documentation, you won't be able to create VMs at all, even with a third-party solution.

Mobile apps will struggle
Microsoft's Universal Windows Platform was built in an interesting way. Developers are able to create one app with responsive design (similar to a webpage). The app is then compiled for x86, x64, and ARM platforms, and distributed accordingly. In other words, if the app is built properly, Microsoft could expand Windows 10 Mobile to include x86 support, or expand Windows 10 PCs to include ARM support, and developers wouldn't have to rebuild their apps.

Obviously, not all developers follow best practices, and some may have written their code assuming that all ARM devices are phones. These apps might show in the wrong orientation, present other UI issues, or just crash altogether.

One reason that this will happen is if the app tries to call mobile-only APIs. For example, calling HardwareButtons could cause an issue.

Some games don't work
I don't know what games you were planning to play on your new Lenovo Miix 630 with its Snapdragon 835 SoC, but it turns out that some of them won't work. Any game that requires a version of OpenGL later than 1.1, or hardware-accelerated OpenGL won't run.

Microsoft also says that games that rely on anti-cheat drivers won't work either. ARM PCs will, however, support DirectX 9 through 12.

Only ARM64 drivers work
While apps can be emulated on ARM, drivers cannot. All "kernel-mode drivers, User-Mode Driver Framework (UMDF) drivers, and print drivers" must be compiled for the native architecture for the operating system.

In other words, if you've written a driver and want people to use it, you should recompile it for ARM. If you're an end user, this could possibly affect your usage of older, unsupported peripherals.

Apps that customize Windows might not work
As Microsoft notes, "Native OS components cannot load non-native components." Apps that customize the OS can include input method editors, assistive technologies, and cloud storage applications. In other words, it's pretty much anything that customizes the shell.

The extensions for these apps may fail, and if the app doesn't catch the error and handle it, it might not work at all.

You shouldn't expect any of these limitations to change within the near future. For example, Microsoft probably isn't going to put effort into getting x64 apps to work. This is built on top of existing technology, and Microsoft wants the future to be UWP, so it's not pushing development of Win32.


Currently, the only ARM processor that's supported by Windows 10 version 1709 is the Qualcomm Snapdragon 835.    But in fact, this very limited (and now quite out of date) scenario isn't something that's actually owned up to by Microsoft or Qualcomm for very much at this point in time.

Competitors like MediaTek, Nvidia, Samsung, and more could make up their own mobile PCs with Windows 10 ARM as well, if they choose to.   But they haven't chosen to do so, in droves no less.

They all realize the now limited production Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 is simply too too slow to make up a compelling product.    They also know that Qualcomm will phase the 835 chip out as the 845 and the 855 ramp up.  Also note that MS has no current Windows OS product to run on those newer, more powerful Qualcomm chipsets and MS is not showing any activity on these at this time either ......

These future Snapdragons (845 and 855) might be fast enough, but the total production levels on these chipsets are totally spoken for going out 2 years at this point in time.

Tongue
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« Last Edit: 02/19/18 at 04:50:18 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Windows on ARM has new limitations
Reply #1 - 02/17/18 at 08:09:24
 

https://liliputing.com/2018/02/microsoft-explains-some-things-that-windows-10...

Microsoft has posted some new documentation for Windows 10 on ARM explaining more about how x86 emulation works and providing some troubleshooting tips for developers. But the company is also clearly outlining some of the “limitations of apps and experiences on ARM.”



These listed limitations apply to the only 3 machines that may actually make it to the ship stage as "the first Windows 10 computers with ARM-based chips" --  these machines are the Asus NovaGo, HP Envy x2, and Lenovo Miix 630.



Chip architecture (x86 and ARM32 go, x64 no go)

Microsoft is confirming that you’ll be able to run most applications designed for x86 chips thanks to emulation. But 64-bit apps designed for Intel and AMD chips will not currently be supported.

Applications and built-in Windows experiences compiled for ARM64 should be good to go. Microsoft says that includes Windows 10 features like Explorer, the Start Menu and Cortana. The company says Notepad and some other key Windows apps have also already been compiled to run natively on ARM64 devices.

When it comes to Universal Windows Platform apps (things you can download from the Microsoft Store), Windows 10 on ARM supports x86 and ARM32 apps… although if there’s an ARM32 version available that’ll always be the one that’s installed.

Interestingly it doesn’t seem like there’s any support for native ARM64 apps yet.

Games, drivers, and other features that might not work

Microsoft notes that games and other applications that require hardware-accelerated OpenGL or “use a version of OpenGL later than 1.1” don’t work.

Keep in mind that OpenGL 1.2 was released in 1998… so an awful lot of games probably won’t work.

Microsoft also says that “games that rely on ‘anti-cheat’ drivers are not supported,” which means that games with DRM aren’t going to work.

Windows 10 on ARM also only supports ARM64 drivers. That means any hardware that relies on an x64 or x86-specific driver isn’t going to work unless the driver is rewritten to support ARM64 architecture.


Other things that won’t work on Windows 10 on ARM include:

App that customize the native Windows experience by doing things like adding a shell extension (such as a cloud storage app that tries to add an “upload to cloud” option to the right-click menu in Windows Explorer), or input method editors or assistive technologies that use native OS components to load non-native components.

Apps that assume any device with an ARM-based OS is using a mobile version of Windows may do things like display in the wrong orientation or use a mobile layout.

Windows Hypervisor Platform is not supported, so you can’t run virtual machines using Hyper-V.

Microsoft’s suggested workarounds: make new versions of your apps.

If you’re an end user rather than a developer, you may be able to run the Program Compatibility Troubleshooter or adjust emulation settings to get some apps to work better. But there’s no guarantee that’ll resolve all of the issues.



For the most part, if a Windows application doesn’t work on Windows 10 for ARM, Microsoft suggests developers recompile it to use supported technologies.

For example, the solution for an app that’s only currently available for x64 architecture? Make an ARM or x86 version.

Have an app that users OpenGL 4.2? Make a version that uses DirectX 9 or later instead.

Have a driver that isn’t designed for ARM? Recompile it to work with ARM.

Which is all well and good, but part of the appeal of Windows 10 on ARM was supposed to be that it’s compatible with legacy Windows applications in a way that Windows RT never was.

Asking developers to do more work to add support for ARM isn’t all that different from what Microsoft has been doing (with limited success) for years: asking developers to port their apps to the new Universal Windows Platform and distribute them through the Windows Store --- these are all things that are FAIL FAIL FAIL and are not what Microsoft touted earlier at all.

The good news is that some (maybe even many) legacy Windows applications should work out of the box on upcoming Windows 10 on ARM devices like the HP Envy x2, Asus NovaGo, and Lenovo Miix 630.  However, most of these are examples of 10 year old programs at best ..... and totally out of date at worst.

But unless PC makers sell an awful lot of these computers, it’s hard to imagine that developers will have much incentive to develop new items for the platform.  And if developers don’t adopt the platform, it might be tough for Microsoft and PC makers to convince customers to buy those new Windows on ARM PCs.

So there’s a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. Maybe if there weren’t quite so many limitations on what Windows on ARM supports, that wouldn’t be the case. But getting millions of existing Windows apps to run on devices with an entirely different chip architecture was already a pretty big challenge.  So, it’s not surprising that there are some significant limitations to light.


Consider the high price they are asking for these new Win 10 on ARM machines, the very short list of ARM chipsets that are supported (that's the one (1) older one, the Snapdragon 835) and the impressive list of restrictions the OS has on it coming out of the gate -- this sounds like could be most of the list of reasons the general mass of PC vendors haven't jumped on board the ARM Windows platform yet ....  

Tongue        (and likely they never will)


AVOID until next year.   See if MS support improves any.    Do not buy right now while this trash fish is still flopping ......
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« Last Edit: 02/17/18 at 23:38:43 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Windows on ARM has new limitations
Reply #2 - 02/18/18 at 00:32:46
 

https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/152501/microsoft-finally-document...

Microsoft Finally Documents the Limitations of Windows 10 on ARM



For over a year we’ve been treated to the fantasy that Windows 10 on ARM was the same as Windows 10 on x86. But it’s a bit more nuanced than that.

Granted, we’ve known some of the differences from the beginning, and we’ve vaguely understood that there would be trade-offs for those moving to this new hardware platform. In particular, the performance of x86 apps, which would need to be emulated.

This week, however, Microsoft finally published a more complete list of the limitations of Windows 10 on ARM. And that word—limitations—is interesting. This isn’t how Windows 10 on ARM differs from Windows 10 on x86-based systems. It’s how it’s more intentionally limited.

And while we absolutely knew about some of these, the items on this list now include.

64-bit apps will not work. Yes, Windows 10 on ARM can run Windows desktop applications. But it can only run 32-bit (x86) desktop applications, not 64-bit (x64) applications. (The documentation doesn’t note this, but support for x64 apps is planned for a future release.)

Certain classes of apps will not run. Utilities that modify the Windows user interface—like shell extensions, input method editors (IMEs), assistive technologies, and cloud storage apps—will not work in Windows 10 on ARM. They will need to be recompiled for ARM, and my guess is that this will not happen in most cases, especially in the next year.

It cannot use x86 drivers. While Windows 10 on ARM can run x86 Windows applications, it cannot utilize x86 drivers. Instead, it will require native ARM64 drivers instead. This means that hardware support will be much more limited than is the case with mainstream Windows 10 versions. In other words, it will likely work much like Windows 10 S does today.

No Hyper-V. This was a gray area previously—I’ve heard the phrase “it’s just Windows 10, so it will work” several times—but now it’s real: Hyper-V is not supported in Windows 10 on ARM.

Older games and graphics apps may not work. Windows 10 on ARM supports DirectX 9, DirectX 10, DirectX 11, and DirectX 12, but apps/games that target older versions will not work. Apps that require hardware-accelerated OpenGL will also not work.

That’s an interesting list and while it’s not completely damming (but close to it) my months-long lackluster experiences with Windows 10 S suggest that the first year will be tough for many who do choose to adopt this platform.


Thurrott picks up on all the important bits and he nails the prediction on the eventual fate of Win 10 ARM.   Of the 3 promised machines, I look for at least one to fail to arrive in any real numbers, ever ......

Tongue


===================================================


Think of it all this way .....  Qualcomm was disrupting the industry and was suing people right and left and was really putting Intel into a sudden new bind on the data center / rack farm side of things.   (the side that Intel made most of their money off of)

And now all of a sudden Qualcomm had become a laptop capable chipset that if a good fast Linux or Fuchsia became available could put both Intel and Microsoft into a more permanent bind.

Something had to be done right away.   Phone calls were made, secret meetings were held.

Just as consortiums to disrupt Google (remember the Oracle lawsuit?) had been done in the past, so it was with the Wintel boys and Broadcom.   Microsoft distracted Qualcomm by getting all buddy buddy with them by promising a new class of laptop, then dumping on Qualcomm's head by dropping the new laptop product at the last minute with lots of excessive restrictions and no real finished progress on anything in the last six months.

Meanwhile, Broadcom structures a hostile takeover bid for Qualcomm -- promising publically to stop all the lawsuits and halt all the ongoing big royalty payments if they win.   The Microsoft distraction and the hostile takeover attempts from Broadcom stops all Qualcomm progress on all other fronts other than on one (1) main phone chipset and one (1) uber speed broadband cell tower modem design and this intentional orchestrated disruption causes the Qualcomm stock price to tank.

Intel tries to use this bought time to upgrade its processors (however they just did more of the same, and more and more of the same again on top of that --- all was still done at 14nm lithography).

Now it is the scheduled "dump off on Qualcomm" time, with Microsoft taking the first turn crapping all over Qualcomm's head.   Look to see the "out of the blue" Broadcom takeover bid efforts evaporate as well, since this planned irritant has run its course pretty much too.

Has Intel had enough recovery time to do something useful with itself?   Apparently Intel will try to do 10nm production thing one more time again this summer, so maybe the fourth time around is the charm for Intel .....  

Listen close now, the low moaning you hear in the background is the sound of the AI woodchipper starting up at moderate speed right now, and Intel now faces this brand new threat that can flat grind them up into coleslaw inside a year or two if they don't do some relatively large right things right -- ASAP.  

Remember, Google and Rockchip have the first ARM based low cost Chromebook AI chipset in trial production and are building up the first trial Chromebook AI units so they can work out the finalized AI functions as we speak.    Look to see a lot of Intel processors move down in the performance rankings accordingly.

And ARM Holdings itself has now come out with a twice as big 4.6 TOPS AI co-processor, and a mating Optical recognition co-processor and the Trillium software integration backbone to give it all a cohesive framework to operate against (some sort of product announcements for these may be presented at MWC next week).   Having a published FOSS standard to write against means everybody's hardware stuff can run the standard softwares, which is what standards are all about, really.

Intel will supposedly be coming out of the gate with their 4th version of 10nm lithography just as Samsung and TSMC start up their FOR REAL full SoC 7nm full production levels, so once again Intel remains 1-2 generations behind technologically and two full years late to the party.

AMD has grown up a lot in size inside the last year, as have most of the phone boys.  Intel is now ranked as the #6 volume-wise fabricator of processors (ranked for volume of production only).   Intel is still #1 in PCs, but PC as a group is overall ranked as #4 in volume production size at this point in time.  Phone, Automotive, IoT all are larger than PC based on pure volume of the products produced and shipped annually.

Both Linux and ChromeOS actually show a chart line on most of the volume charts now, and Wintel's influence is still shrinking year on year on year at a fairly steady 5-6% (compounded annually).

Chromebooks continue to advance at an ever increasing pace, as the competing Windows on ARM thing begins to abort on itself.



====================================================



This week (Feb 13) Microsoft finally published a more complete list of the limitations of Windows 10 on ARM. And that word—limitations—is interesting. This isn’t how Windows 10 on ARM differs from Windows 10 on x86-based systems. It’s more about how it’s been intentionally limited.

OK, another 5 days go past after this point (Feb. 19) and it is now being reported that MS has now deleted this source page completely from their product support site, replacing it with totally reworded stuff about addressing other items completely.

MS is catching a LOT of shite over intentionally misleading the laptop building people and the public and several of the affected smaller manufacturers who had actually spent money on this fake out move have began collecting information to do a class action lawsuit against MS.   This original web page was clear primary evidence of the intentional misleading, so it was taken down by MS.  

Shame though, the whole thing was preserved on several back up sites before it was taken down by MS.         Roll Eyes   hee hee     EU regulators currently working on the Meltdown and Spectre issues have had them a brand new complaint lodged against the Wintel screw-up boys ......  more of the same sort of shenanigans to the EU boys, sad really.    It now becomes "a pattern of behavior in restraint of trade" and the potential fines go way way way up into the 10's of billions.

MS is now faced with a choice -- follow through and make it all real, or else eat the lawsuits, EU penalities and all the bad press.   Which one do you think they will do?

Lenovo is now supporting MS by saying they had never really promised to build a unit by early this spring, but that Lenovo had intended all along to go with the Snapdragon 855 processor (next year's 7nm ARM AI processor) assuming that MS still has a Win 10 ARM that is for real sitting around by then that will actually run on the new yet to be built Snapdragon 855 processor.    Lots of "ifs" in that sentence, ain't they .....      

Roll Eyes

Wonder who asked them to say that right about now, huh?    I think Lenovo has just identified themselves as a co-conspirator instead of covering their own butts as they intended to do as Lenovo never built anything at all, which means they knew it was a fake out move and they were in on the scam.

Now if MS can arrange for the rest of the original three announced SD 835 ARM laptop builders to say the exact same thing, well then mebbe they can perhaps write an out for themselves as a "solidarity group" .......   mebbe.  

To show they were not part of the scam a bunch of finished units would have to have had to be built up by each player though, logically enough.   You are either damaged by the scam or a part of the scam -- one or the other.


Roll Eyes    


I still hear a low moaning sound in the background from that constantly running wood chipper as the new Chromebook AI units built off the RK3399 Pro 2.6 TOPS AI SoC gets ready to start grinding up some of its first Wintel bushes .......


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« Last Edit: 02/21/18 at 11:08:39 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Windows on ARM has new limitations
Reply #3 - 02/21/18 at 06:55:34
 

https://liliputing.com/2018/02/first-windows-arm-pcs-will-hit-stores-april.html

MS's answer is to GO AHEAD AND MAKE THE UNITS -- this way they cannot be accused of dumping off on Qualcomm.    The costs of building and then discounting the units later on is far far less than the costs of the lawsuits and EU fines .....

The first Windows 10 PCs with ARM-based chips are coming soon… like real soon.

Lenovo, HP, and Asus have all unveiled convertible notebooks or 2-in-1 tablets featuring Windows 10 and Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 processors, and now Qualcomm has announced that the first of those devices will be available “beginning this calendar quarter.”

In other words, you’ll be able to buy a Windows 10 PC with an ARM-based processor by the end of March… if that’s something you want to spend money on.


HP is making up an exactly matched pair of units, one with ARM and one with Intel, both units offering always on and long 15+ hour battery life.   We shall see what sells and what does not.

Prices may actually favor the Intel units as MS is charging quite a premium for these very first ARM chipset laptops.


===================================================


(three days later)

Prices are out now for the HP ARM based unit, it costs $1,000 per unit ($200 more than the Intel based unit).

This goes against all normal logic, as the ARM unit is less capable and has all the MS software limitations mentioned above and the ARM unit only provides a extra two to three hours of extra run time (taken most optimistically).   Both units will run for at least 9 hours (a full working day).

By $$$ overcharging for the ARM based units, the numerical amount of ARM units that will be sold is greatly decreased.  

Makes you wonder ....... if you only built a couple of hundred units and you had planned to go with the next Snapdragon 845 processor with shipping the new units later on this year then the over-pricing might make a little more sense ......

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« Last Edit: 02/25/18 at 04:38:40 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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