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New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff (Read 376 times)
norm92de
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #15 - 02/25/18 at 16:13:33
 
Justin,
My irony was not apparent.

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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #16 - 02/25/18 at 17:55:13
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/25/18 at 15:04:05:
I'd sure like to spend time with you. You explore existential questions without allowing anything you've been Told to hold you back. You allow the mysteries to inspire your curiosity.


Ride on up if you like, we have spare rooms, heat and air, hot and cold running water, cutting edge everything for creature comforts, mattresses and blankets.   I know you are wondering but it's not a Trump Tower.
Almost forgot something, a leaky barn.  😁🏍😎
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #17 - 02/25/18 at 22:48:28
 
norm92de wrote on 02/25/18 at 16:13:33:
Justin,
My irony was not apparent.




The Bible doesn't say it explicitly. The Archbishop James Ussher (1581–1656) added up the lifespan of the people mentioned in the genealogies in the Bible (starting with Adam), and calculated the age of the Earth as about 6000 years. For some people, his work seems to be gospel.
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #18 - 02/26/18 at 03:25:24
 
IslandRoad wrote on 02/25/18 at 22:48:28:
norm92de wrote on 02/25/18 at 16:13:33:
Justin,
My irony was not apparent.




The Bible doesn't say it explicitly. The Archbishop James Ussher (1581–1656) added up the lifespan of the people mentioned in the genealogies in the Bible (starting with Adam), and calculated the age of the Earth as about 6000 years. For some people, his work seems to be gospel.


Not Gospel but the is significant scientific evidence to support the assertion.
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #19 - 02/26/18 at 07:44:25
 
I guess it was significant scientific evidence at the turn of the 17th century, but there has been a lot more data gathered since then. I would argue that science and knowledge have developed considerably since then, and the 6000 year hypothesis is no longer tenable.

In fact the period in which Ussher lived was a turning point in the development of astronomy. The astronomer Tycho Brahe developed instrumentation that provided a level of precision in measuring astronomical distances that had never been seen before, and his contemporary, Johannes Kepler, produced calculations for the orbit of the planets which are still influential today in launching satellites into orbit. Some have argued that Isaac Newton had probably read Kepler's work prior to producing his inverse square formula for gravity.

This was the beginning of the end for the concept of the 'heavenly spheres', which the early church fathers had developed, based on ancient Greek philosophy. From the 16th century onward the understanding of the sheer scale of the universe expanded further with each new discovery. The images produced by the Hubble telescope perhaps provided the next 'leap' in appreciating that scale.

With that scale of distance, the scale of time also expanded necessarily.
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #20 - 02/26/18 at 08:10:21
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/24/18 at 22:09:04:

The morning and the evening of the first day ......

The morning and the evening of the first period of time ......

Moses wrote in the words that he had, to explain what he was shown.   He did the best he could do with what he had to work with.   Books have been written paralleling the Big Bang with Moses's Creation timeline, transposing billions of years for days.

Moses was the educated foster son of a Pharaoh, who then spent most of his life herding sheep in the desert speaking a fairly primitive form of Hebrew in which he wrote the Book of Genesis.

Now they are saying much of the expansion of the Universe and the actual formation of matter from energy took place inside the first hours after the Big Bang.

Then there was a thick soup (or sea) of sub-particles and stuff formed that had to expand and cool off before atoms of hydrogen could form and this took a while to happen .....

Then this thin vapor of matter was slowly condensed by gravity and suns were formed .....  suns that lit up, grew old and blew up.  Repeatedly.   Reforming from the dust of the last set of stars and some new hydrogen that was out floating free in space.

And Man eventually was formed from the dust of the earth --- stardust ---  carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, iron and various other heavier forms of stardust that came from the bigger supernovas.

You want to see some stardust, look at your hand -- pure quill stardust.

Your real issue is with the timelines involved, not the creator or the creation.



Oldfeller - I have to say - awesome posts!  It's great to see your insightful posts and your intelligent takes on the information.

Although I'm agnostic, I like how you lay out planck time in accordance with the bible - I get it, but as we keep finding out, Man has little grasp on that period of existence. (not to mention that we have no real way of quantifying our existence/God/intent, etc.)  However, you put it together in a very compelling way!

Not to say that I'm gonna go and join up with a church anytime soon, but your posts actually do enforce the idea that we as humans are just trying to find our way/purpose/meaning in this fleeting micro-minute period of time.  To me, that's the basis of all religions (flawed, though they might be) .

Keep up the great posts!


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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #21 - 02/26/18 at 08:15:56
 
Two clocks with the same time, send one into space and keep one here.
After it flies for a while bring it back; do the still have the same time ?
No.
How is time bent like that ?
If time is bent then space can be bent.
You have read about worm holes and black holes and the suppositions concerning them I'm sure.
What does that do to our speculations from the surface of this tiny planet ?
Look at how much changed when the Hubble went just barely outside our atmosphere ?  A lot of ideas we changed about things.
How much is there to learn if we could just get to the closest star to us ?

What is the diameter of the universe that we can see so far ?
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #22 - 02/26/18 at 08:59:48
 
There are a lot of questions there Lancer  Shocked

And most of them, I am not qualified to answer. But they do prompt some thoughts about the nature of knowledge. I'll respond a little, mostly just to explore the ideas.

You are correct: space and time are bent. That is not a new concept. In fact, since Einstein, space and time have been considered inseparable. Hence the term 'space/time'.

Speculations about black holes can be extrapolated from our knowledge that a clock in space records a different 'speed' of time than a clock on the Earth's surface. In fact, it has been demonstrated that a clock at the top of a tower reads time at a different rate to one in the basement. That is another example of the value of developments in precision instrumentation.

The mass of an object bends space, in the same way a bowling ball creates a dip in the surface of a trampoline. The more mass, the more space/time is compressed. In astronomical terms, the Earth is not very dense (massive). Therefore the compression in space/time is comparatively small. Black holes are massive, therefore the compression in space/time is astounding.

I am already reaching beyond my ability to speak authoritatively on that subject. So I'll stop there.


I agree, a lot of ideas have changed. However, in astronomy, they tend to change in the same direction, not back and forth. Astronomers, and other scientists tend to be very conservative. Early astronomers were trying to find evidence for what they thought was a finite universe: the Earth was at the centre, there were nine celestial bodies, and then the sphere of the stars. As they collected better data and better mathematical methods, they learned that it was bigger than they thought. Eventually they realised the Sun was not at the centre of the universe, but rather, it was just one star among many. This had been hypothesized by philosophers such as Rene Descartes and Giordano Bruno. The latter was burned at the stake by the church for heresy.

The question of steady state, versus expanding universe was answered pretty well by the discoveries of the Hubble telescope, and calculations based on the red-shift of light travelling over distances. The universe is not only almost unimaginably big, it is also flying apart at an incredible speed.

Yes knowledge on the subject has changed, but as I mentioned earlier, the changes have always been in the same direction. The more we learn, the bigger it gets.
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #23 - 02/26/18 at 09:30:53
 
Question:

What element controls man’s destiny?

How can we become our unique self, without some other ingredient?

If it was matter, like a recipe, that creates the human body, why can’t these elements, in totality, be seen within my body chemistry?

Seems to me a very important piece of the puzzle, has yet to be answered, scientifically.....????

What happens to all those elements that are within my ability to create if I mate, does it die with my flesh?

How can, what is not, or never has been, die, yet, it was scripted, somehow, to be able?

It has to be more than just my seed, for the tool that is used to applicate it isn’t BIG enuff to hold all that possibilities  Grin

Anybody want to field my question?
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #24 - 02/26/18 at 11:50:21
 
raydawg wrote on 02/26/18 at 09:30:53:
Question:

What element controls man’s destiny?

The phrasing of that question assumes its own answer. The term 'destiny' implies there is some sort of control. Maybe there isn't.

How can we become our unique self, without some other ingredient?

Why would we want to, even if we could? No man is an island. As Carl Sagan said "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you first need a universe."

If it was matter, like a recipe, that creates the human body, why can’t these elements, in totality, be seen within my body chemistry?

I'm pretty sure they can. However, the microscopic world (just like the cosmological world) seems to get bigger, the more we learn about it. However, I would challenge your use of the word 'creates' because it introduces the assumption of a creator, which is something than has not been established in this conversation. To me it makes more sense to say 'the human body is composed of these elements' rather than 'these elements create my body'.

Seems to me a very important piece of the puzzle, has yet to be answered, scientifically.....????

Many things have not been answered scientifically. However, the scientific method has been demonstrated again and again as the best we have so far in learning about the universe.

What happens to all those elements that are within my ability to create if I mate, does it die with my flesh?

Your ability to mate dies - the elements just change.

How can, what is not, or never has been, die, yet, it was scripted, somehow, to be able?

That question doesn't make sense. That which has never been, can't do anything. As for being 'scripted', well, you can teach a cat to have kittens in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits!

It has to be more than just my seed, for the tool that is used to applicate it isn’t BIG enuff to hold all that possibilities  Grin

I'll take you're word on that!!  Cool

Anybody want to field my question?

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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #25 - 02/26/18 at 11:52:38
 


LANCER wrote on 02/26/18 at 08:15:56:
What is the diameter of the universe that we can see so far ?



92 Billion light years in diameter,  as of this week anyway.    We can see  "46 Billion radial years back in time"  in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far).   Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old.    

......  durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know  ......


When the new "Hubble type" larger space telescope gets all set up and working good expect it to all change up all over again.  

Or one of the new even larger ground based arrays gets up and going .......   same thing -- bigger/older.

Just count on the size and the "age" to increase and the various nutso theories and unproven un-seen & unidentified dark stuff fudges get wilder and wilder and wilder.
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #26 - 02/26/18 at 12:27:58
 

I mentioned "strange energy" that is known about and acknowledged by the Hadron Collider people who are just shocked that LENR guys are seeing it in their little bitty no account low power LENR rig ups.

We got 4 LENR experimenters partially confirming this with different viewpoints and certainly different equipment and rigs.

Watch this video, make no assumptions it really is a hunk of pure black iron that partially changed its physical properties -- think of it as a block of plastic if you like.    I am personally a lot more comfortable thinking it to be a block of styrofoam or plastic, really ......

HOWEVER, if you look at the after pictures, sure looks like "something" that got real real hot and some force TWISTED it and collapsed it in on itself.

The table didn't scorch or melt --- we are being told the rectangular block stayed at close to room temperature.

My disbelief is really really high on this one, as if it is real then we don't know SQUAT about metals and atoms and lattices etc. etc.      This smells like a shill being rung in by a skeptopath to cloud and distract people -- but who knows, someone in LENR will try to replicate it to verify or to deny it.

Tongue


https://youtu.be/4-YwbgXpnkA
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #27 - 02/26/18 at 12:57:13
 
[/color]Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/26/18 at 11:52:38:


LANCER wrote on 02/26/18 at 08:15:56:
What is the diameter of the universe that we can see so far ?



92 Billion light years in diameter,  as of this week anyway.    We can see  "46 Billion radial years back in time"  in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far).   Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old.    

......  durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know  ......



Yup
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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #28 - 02/26/18 at 13:18:17
 
LANCER wrote on 02/26/18 at 12:57:13:
[/color]Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/26/18 at 11:52:38:


LANCER wrote on 02/26/18 at 08:15:56:
What is the diameter of the universe that we can see so far ?



92 Billion light years in diameter,  as of this week anyway.    We can see  "46 Billion radial years back in time"  in other words, looking in any one direction (and we can look in six opposing directions back at least that far).   Age of the Universe has jumped up from the <6 billion years old when we were in grade school, in stages, past 13.77 Billion and now jumping up to 46 Billion years old.    

......  durn them telescope upgrades, they are really making a mess of things you know  ......



Yup



There's a difference between 'how far we can see' and the outer limits of the 'observable universe'.

The term 'observable universe' is a technical term referring to a limitation created by the speed of light. Furthermore, due to the expansion of the universe (which was not subject to the limits of the speed of light), it is possible to see things, as they were at one point in time, but which are now further away than we will ever be able to see - we just see them as they were when the light left them.

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Re: New Telescopes mean seeing new stuff
Reply #29 - 02/26/18 at 13:26:13
 
IslandRoad wrote on 02/26/18 at 08:59:48:
There are a lot of questions there Lancer  Shocked

And most of them, I am not qualified to answer. But they do prompt some thoughts about the nature of knowledge. I'll respond a little, mostly just to explore the ideas.

You are correct: space and time are bent. That is not a new concept. In fact, since Einstein, space and time have been considered inseparable. Hence the term 'space/time'.

Speculations about black holes can be extrapolated from our knowledge that a clock in space records a different 'speed' of time than a clock on the Earth's surface. In fact, it has been demonstrated that a clock at the top of a tower reads time at a different rate to one in the basement. That is another example of the value of developments in precision instrumentation.

The mass of an object bends space, in the same way a bowling ball creates a dip in the surface of a trampoline. The more mass, the more space/time is compressed. In astronomical terms, the Earth is not very dense (massive). Therefore the compression in space/time is comparatively small. Black holes are massive, therefore the compression in space/time is astounding.

I am already reaching beyond my ability to speak authoritatively on that subject. So I'll stop there.


I agree, a lot of ideas have changed. However, in astronomy, they tend to change in the same direction, not back and forth. Astronomers, and other scientists tend to be very conservative. Early astronomers were trying to find evidence for what they thought was a finite universe: the Earth was at the centre, there were nine celestial bodies, and then the sphere of the stars. As they collected better data and better mathematical methods, they learned that it was bigger than they thought. Eventually they realised the Sun was not at the centre of the universe, but rather, it was just one star among many. This had been hypothesized by philosophers such as Rene Descartes and Giordano Bruno. The latter was burned at the stake by the church for heresy.

The question of steady state, versus expanding universe was answered pretty well by the discoveries of the Hubble telescope, and calculations based on the red-shift of light travelling over distances. The universe is not only almost unimaginably big, it is also flying apart at an incredible speed.

Yes knowledge on the subject has changed, but as I mentioned earlier, the changes have always been in the same direction. The more we learn, the bigger it gets.


Smiley+1

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