Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Twin plug ignition? (Read 214 times)
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1451

Twin plug ignition?
02/04/18 at 10:29:18
 
While staring at a DR650 motor, one of the obvious differences is the second spark plug. Has anyone tried twin-plugging their Savage? I'v twin plugged more than a few Airhead BMWs, and the results are good. Of course, on an Airhead, the second plug is on the other side of the combustion chamber, and on a DR, its right next to the original. But, it must be doing some good, I figure.
One of the things that need to be done is to lessen the full advance timing (not idle). Usually into the 28-30 degree BTDC range.
Wondering if the DR ignition box would work with the Savage trigger? Or is there an aftermarket ignition box that allows one to adjust the timing curve? I think there is an aftermarket box for the DR.
I've got the second head off to be ported and fondled, so poking a second plug hole is no big deal.
Must be winter. Too cold to be in the garage...
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #1 - 02/04/18 at 12:57:38
 
Armen ,I'm not sure the double plug in the DR was there to increase performance as much it was to make ignition more reliable, in off road duty. Our bikes have relatively fast moving flame fronts due to the four valves and twin swirl and center plug firing, I don't believe a second plug would show any noticeable improvement. However , if you used the DR coil and CDI ,I believe the Savage pickup coil would still trigger it.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18143
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #2 - 02/04/18 at 13:47:02
 
A long time ago Porsche put twin plug ignitions into their racing cars to allow a duplication of ignition.....just like airplanes have......to allow the cars to continue racing if one ignition system failed.  They also discovered the timing could be reduced and they got additional power as a result.  With 2 big valves per cylinder....the sparkplugs had to be set off to the side of the head pretty far, and the flame front had a long way to travel to get all the way across the piston.

With the 4 valve design, the spark plug is pretty much in the center of the piston.....I don't know that a second plug would do much for the Savage.  (It does make you wonder why Suzuki did it in the DR).

Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Gary_in_NJ
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

LS650 Cafe Racer

Posts: 2634
Amongst the Twisty Roads
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #3 - 02/04/18 at 16:47:18
 
The second plug is there as a backup.
Back to top
 
 

A life-time student of motorcycling.
LS650 Cafe, DRZ400SM, FZ6N, SV650S, CB900C, Ducati ST2, CB550F-SS
My LS650=> http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Left.JPG
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1451

Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #4 - 02/04/18 at 17:03:09
 
On airplanes and older dirt bikes, maybe, but twin plugs on street bikes are for more complete combustion. I kinda doubt the big twin cruiser like the XL1200S and the Kawi Vulcans, and the big BMW singles are worried that the primary plug will foul.
Even with a 4 valve head and a central spark plug, it is still a pretty big combustion chamber.
Prob the only way to know for sure is to find a good used ignition box and see if it sparks with the Savage trigger.
Doubt it will make any more HP, but it might make a 97mm, high compression combustion chamber a little happier.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #5 - 02/04/18 at 20:45:42
 
Seems like knowing how the flame front propagates before you decide where the second plug goes would be helpful.
Ahh, screwitt, I'm tired,, that's a messed up sentence, but I don't want to fix it..
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #6 - 02/04/18 at 20:59:05
 
Armen  the 97 mm combustion camber is already happier, it's smaller due to the crowned top piston,and the temperature of the fuel mix is hotter due to increased compression.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1451

Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #7 - 02/05/18 at 02:40:16
 
FWIW, the Gen II SV650 went to two plugs and makes about 10 more ponies than the Gen I single plug motor. That wasn't the only change made, but it helped.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18143
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #8 - 02/05/18 at 03:37:56
 
I have read that the BMW RT1150 had surging issues at cruise speeds, and when they fixed it the bike got 2 plugs per cylinder.......I am not sure what else they may have done.

Twin plugs allow you to run less advance - and that can help provide more power.  It also allows 2 flame fronts to burn, and it can help resolve detonation issues as the temperature of the flame front is reduced (hard to believe that stuff makes any difference at 50 times a second....or whatever tiny time period the combustion cycle occurs).

I have looked at the Savage cylinder head.....and I really don't see where the second plug could fit (I have not looked at a DR head to see where the second plug is).  If the second plug is within an inch of the first one....I am not sure it would be all that helpful.

Back in the Bultaco/Ossa/Greeves late 60's/early 70's days the bikes were single ignition - but often had a second spark plug hole where you could add a backup plug - if one plug fouled you could move the wire to the other plug.  I remember hearing stories of guys who would not have a proper heat range plug to put in the second hole - and they would stick a plug in that hole that had too high of a heat range for the bike...they wrongly figured that since the plug wasn't hooked up to thec coil wire it wouldn't make any difference.  However - the second plug is still exposed to the combustion process, and the insulator of the spark plug still gets hot and holds heat ....and the second plug that had too high of a heat range could get so hot it would burn a hole in the piston.  (If I remember correctly the CZ had 2 sets of points, 2 coils and 2 spark plugs per cylinder).
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18143
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #9 - 02/05/18 at 04:45:51
 
OK....here is a DR550 head on eBay that shows what is going on.

The second plug is way over on the side.......and I could see how this would start 2 flame fronts.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/suzuki-dr-650-se-96-2017-cylinder-head/222711202878?...

The DR650 coil most likely could be used.....then you would have to figure out about the timing and ignition box.
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1451

Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #10 - 02/05/18 at 05:40:14
 
Dave,
up, as to the Oilheads. In fact San Jose BMW does a twin plug conversion on the early models.
I'm going to pick up a used DR ignition box and coils on Ebay and see if I can get it to work with the Savage.
If all else fails, I'll use the second plug hole for one of those compression release thingies the guys use on big Harleys.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18143
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #11 - 02/05/18 at 06:17:28
 
Does the DR use a single coil with 2 plug wires - or does it use 2 coils (which would allow the timing to each one could be a bit different)?
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #12 - 02/05/18 at 06:21:59
 
Armen, It would be interesting to see the results, it might  improve fuel mileage,and power.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #13 - 02/05/18 at 06:23:31
 
Dave ,yes it uses a single coil with two plug wires. It makes me wonder if  your going to two plugs if it might be possible to use just the coil ,and simplify any timing issues.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Fast 650
Senior Member
****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 406
Valrico, FL
Gender: male
Re: Twin plug ignition?
Reply #14 - 02/05/18 at 09:38:02
 
One thing to keep in mind is that if it improves the flame travel, you will probably have to retard the timing to compensate for that. Otherwise, to the engine it will appear that the timing is over advanced. Especially if you have a bigger bore or higher compression piston installed.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
11/19/24 at 22:00:59



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Twin plug ignition?


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.