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Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in frame (Read 209 times)
PJames
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Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in frame
09/06/17 at 01:53:18
 
I looked around but didn't find info on the subject, so pardon me if this has already been discussed Smiley

I'd like to know if it is possible to change the cylinder head gasket without removing the engine from the frame?
(there doesn't seem to be enough room)

I'm working on my own and don't have a special stand for the bike, it's resting on both wheels and side stand.

Thank ya all  Wink
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half British, half French, half Dad, half biker Smiley
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knows how to use a screwdriver, but not much more
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Dave
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #1 - 09/06/17 at 02:03:22
 
You can remove the head cover - but not the cylinder head with the engine in the frame.  The cylinder studs are too long, and the head will hit the frame before it clears the cylinder.

It is very, very rare that the Savage has a failed head gasket - why do you want to replace the head gasket?

Do you have an oil leak at the head?  Most oil leaks are not head gasket related - but are from the leaky plug over the front right cylinder stud, or an oil seep at the stud and nut at the front of the engine, leaky O-rings at the valve inspection caps, or failed sealant at the head cover.
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PJames
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #2 - 09/06/17 at 02:32:06
 
Aha, spot on Dave!

I had already removed the cylinder head cover, and put silicone around the plug, thinking that the oil leak came from above, but is seems to come out from below, from the nut itself (directly below that plug).

witht the virbations and heat (when driving) the oil leaks out the back of the cylinder head (carb side) and dribbles all over the engine...
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half British, half French, half Dad, half biker Smiley
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knows how to use a screwdriver, but not much more
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #3 - 09/06/17 at 02:43:26
 
Look at the right rear cylinder stud, you can see it if you look up the hole in the head beside the carb - the hole goes forward to the opening up by the exhaust port (and the one where the head plug is).  The right rear stud can leak oil from the camshaft/rocker area - this stud can be visible where it exits the head casting for a small span.  The cure is to remove the head cover, remove the right rear nut and washer, clean the area up and apply sealant to the copper washer and never seize to the nut before you torque it...and you might as well do the left front cylinder stud as well, as those can leak oil as well.

The copper washers are soft when new - but they harden with the operating heat of the engine.  They seal well when new - but if they are reused they don't always seal.

The nuts under the intake and exhaust port can leak as well, remove the nuts, clean the area, and apply sealant.  These nuts should have a flange machined into them (no flat or lock washer).
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #4 - 09/06/17 at 03:26:08
 
Steel gets hard when you heat it and quench it.
Copper gets softer.
Why can't things just behave?
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PJames
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #5 - 09/06/17 at 03:54:19
 
Dave wrote on 09/06/17 at 02:43:26:
Look at the right rear cylinder stud, you can see it if you look up the hole in the head beside the carb - the hole goes forward to the opening up by the exhaust port (and the one where the head plug is).  The right rear stud can leak oil from the camshaft/rocker area - this stud can be visible where it exits the head casting for a small span.  The cure is to remove the head cover, remove the right rear nut and washer, clean the area up and apply sealant to the copper washer and never seize to the nut before you torque it...and you might as well do the left front cylinder stud as well, as those can leak oil as well.

The copper washers are soft when new - but they harden with the operating heat of the engine.  They seal well when new - but if they are reused they don't always seal.

The nuts under the intake and exhaust port can leak as well, remove the nuts, clean the area, and apply sealant.  These nuts should have a flange machined into them (no flat or lock washer).

________

I'll take a close look at that!
I had the impression the leak came from the front right cylinder stud (the one under the plug, and that you can see standing in front, just left of the exhaust).
When you talk about sealant, I suppose the high temp silicone I bought for the cylinder head cover will do?

Thanks for all the explanation!
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half British, half French, half Dad, half biker Smiley
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #6 - 09/06/17 at 04:12:49
 
The right front head plug can leak.......you really should clean the engine well, then look and see where the leak is coming from.  If it is the rubber plug - get a new one and order the plug #11145-37401 which is the improved version.  Don't re-use an old "heat hardened" one.

I am not a fan of using generic store bought RTV sealant on motorcycle engines.  Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha and 3bond all make specific sealants for the motorcycle engine, and they are easy to get and affordable and they are "different" than the store bought stuff.  It seems to have more body to it, it sets up slower.  I don't know where you get it in France - but it is easy to get and affordable in the US....a single tube of this stuff will outlast 5 tubes of the store bought RTV, as it lasts for years and years in the tube - the store bought stuff gets hard in the tube in 6 months.

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/suzuki/S-99000-31140.html
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #7 - 09/06/17 at 04:46:48
 
Most likely the plug leaking and then running all over the place while riding.  Mine would spray all over the battery box and side covers.  As Dave pointed out, RTV isn't a guaranteed fix.  I'd say get a new plug and a high quality sealant.  (Use a little on the head plug when you install it.)

Also, you should always anneal copper washers when reusing them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLqlDSsQpA


EDIT: How come the media tags never work for me???? Huh
EDIT2: Dave fixed it for me as described below.  Thanks!

Dave wrote on 09/06/17 at 05:28:07:
You have to remove the "s" from https:   and change it to http;

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« Last Edit: 09/06/17 at 07:46:45 by ohiomoto »  
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PJames
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #8 - 09/06/17 at 05:11:34
 
I don't think it's a plug problem, I stuck it on with silicone (same as for closing the cylinder head cover) and it still leaked when I took it for a ride (after waiting 24h+ for drying).

The silicone I use is special engine, high temp silicone.

I'll take a look when I get home.
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half British, half French, half Dad, half biker Smiley
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knows how to use a screwdriver, but not much more
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Dave
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #9 - 09/06/17 at 05:28:07
 
ohiomoto wrote on 09/06/17 at 04:46:48:
EDIT: How come the media tags never work for me???? Huh


You have to remove the "s" from https:   and change it to http;

The annealing will make the copper soft again - but it won't get rid of the scratches/gouges that occurred the first time the nuts were tightened down on the soft washers.  (You might have to sand them a bit to get a smooth surface again).
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Dave
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #10 - 09/06/17 at 05:31:14
 
PJames wrote on 09/06/17 at 05:11:34:
The silicone I use is special engine, high temp silicone.


OK.....glad you like it.  Hope it works well for you.
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #11 - 09/06/17 at 07:52:23
 
Dave wrote on 09/06/17 at 05:28:07:
The annealing will make the copper soft again - but it won't get rid of the scratches/gouges that occurred the first time the nuts were tightened down on the soft washers.  (You might have to sand them a bit to get a smooth surface again).
-----------------------------

I think the idea is because the copper is soft, the old scratches get smashed or flattened while new ones get put in and the washer should seal again.  I think that's the idea.  Personally, I've never sanded them.
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« Last Edit: 09/06/17 at 10:02:15 by Dave »  
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PJames
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Re: Remove cylinder head gasket with engine in fra
Reply #12 - 09/27/17 at 05:53:22
 
Dave wrote on 09/06/17 at 02:43:26:
Look at the right rear cylinder stud, you can see it if you look up the hole in the head beside the carb - the hole goes forward to the opening up by the exhaust port (and the one where the head plug is).  The right rear stud can leak oil from the camshaft/rocker area - this stud can be visible where it exits the head casting for a small span.  The cure is to remove the head cover, remove the right rear nut and washer, clean the area up and apply sealant to the copper washer and never seize to the nut before you torque it...and you might as well do the left front cylinder stud as well, as those can leak oil as well.

The copper washers are soft when new - but they harden with the operating heat of the engine.  They seal well when new - but if they are reused they don't always seal.

The nuts under the intake and exhaust port can leak as well, remove the nuts, clean the area, and apply sealant.  These nuts should have a flange machined into them (no flat or lock washer).

______________________
Thanks Dave, I siliconed the right rear cylinder nut, and the right front one too.
I took it for a spin and the the moment there is no oil leak, looks like you spotted the problem  Grin

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half British, half French, half Dad, half biker Smiley
'98 Savage & '04 Bandit
knows how to use a screwdriver, but not much more
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