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What happened tensioner mods (Read 846 times)
norm92de
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #45 - 05/20/18 at 12:23:15
 
What Dave has done is to hedge his bet so to speak.

I think we will all be doing away with the pawl sooner or later. It will be interesting to see what mileage can be achieved- on the chain- if someone removes it very early in the game before appreciable chain wear has taken place.

One thing is certain the poor chain and more importantly the cam bearings are taking a terrible beating after starting when a tooth has just been taken up by the pawl.
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #46 - 05/20/18 at 15:40:10
 
I got the bike back together and was able to ride 50 miles today.

So far so good! Smiley
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #47 - 05/20/18 at 15:58:22
 
Basically what I was planning on doing. We talked about how much the cylinder grows, and how much slack to allow.
On the next cylinder I mangle, I'll put a window on the trailing side of the cam chain so that I can check the tension hot and cold. I did that on our SR500 racer and it worked great.
Considering that the slack reduces by twice the amount the cylinder grows, maybe 1mm isn't enough. Can't be any worse than that pawl set-up. That has to be the reason the chains die a quick and painful death.
Gung ho for doing this. One day, I'll actually work on my own bikes when no one else is looking...
-Armen
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DragBikeMike
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #48 - 05/22/18 at 01:06:48
 
I measured cylinder growth today.  Ambient temp was 85 degrees F.  Engine/cylinder temp before starting was 85 degrees F.  Rode for twenty minutes.  On return engine/cylinder temp was 285 degrees F.  Total cylinder growth from centerline of crankshaft to just above the camshaft was exactly .025".

Don't forget that the chain is also growing as the temperature increases.  The coefficient of expansion for steel is 51% of the coefficient for aluminum.  Its a complicated problem.  I intend to attempt an evaluation along with some critical measurements discussed in this thread.  I think it will be an interesting project.  There's a lot of interesting ideas discussed in here.
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norm92de
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #49 - 05/22/18 at 08:06:39
 
I made some measurements of cylinder growth some time ago. Starting at about 60* F. My repeatable measurements were .020" from the base flange to one of the fins on the cylinder head.

Based on this I concluded that from the center of the crank to the center of the camshaft the cylinder growth would be about .025" This agrees very well with you measurements DBM
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #50 - 05/22/18 at 08:13:21
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 05/22/18 at 01:06:48:
Don't forget that the chain is also growing as the temperature increases.


And just to make this even more complicated.....I suspect the cylinder and head get warm and grow faster than the chain.  The head and cylinder get hot from the combustion process - the chain only gets the heat passed  as it travels from the head to the camshaft to the cam sprocket.....or from the piston though the rod to the crank to the crank sprocket......or from the oil splashed onto the chain.  And the cam sprocket most likely gets a bit warmer than the crank sprocket.

I suspect the chain gets warm far slower than the head/cylinder, and it likely never becomes as hot as the head or cylinder.

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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #51 - 05/22/18 at 12:07:24
 
Dave,
I think your latest fix is easily the best compromise.

Combined with Batman's experience with no pawl at all and no restriction of backward movement I think we will see quite an improvement in cam chain life. I also think that your guess of 1MM is very close, and anyway, is a lot better than none as provided by Suzuki.
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #52 - 05/23/18 at 22:45:10
 
When I first removed the pawl from my tensioner, Dave brought up a valid point that the valve springs being much stronger than the tensioner piston spring that at times (I'm thinking shutdown) that the cam could be rotated forward , moving the slack in the chain to the area of the front guide. while when restarting the bike the starter motor develops instant torque and snatches the slack from the chain and MAY cause momentary stress to the pins and possible wear ,this doesn't happens often. ( if the motor was very strong we wouldn't need decompression) What bothers me is what occurs on the other side of the chain, which is now stretched taut, In my case , if my piston was out dealing with 2-3 mm of stretch with only the spring holding it the piston simply retracts , and no extra pressure is applied to the chain . But what stress would occur if my tensioner was set up to retract only 1mm? It could be many times greater than the stock tensioner.Note DBM's statement below in his reply #55"as I continuied to rotate the motor backward, the plunger would retract 8 mm".I believe this same type of action takes place with forward rotation,  a purposed limit of .050 (1/16) will not releave 8mm(5/16) placed on the chain , and due to the nature of the cam being in a certain place for this to occur, the stretch will happen in the very same section of chain each time. limiting the tensioner from full retraction , when the chain is already under stress from the valve springs,  is like putting a thorn in its side.
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« Last Edit: 05/24/18 at 17:07:50 by batman »  

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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #53 - 05/23/18 at 23:17:17
 
I spent the day taking data on the chain tensioner assembly.  I gathered some interesting info.  Hopefully the info will help some of you make a decision on your own tensioner.  

I have already posted that I measured cylinder growth from ambient to normal operating temp.  I did that by setting up a dial indicator rig to monitor the distance between the surface just above the camshaft to a bolt hole in the case that is just about even with the crank centerline.  The span of the rig is just about 13.5".  I left the rig in place but removed the indicator, took the bike for a twenty minute ride, then reinstalled the indicator while the engine was idling, shut it down, zeroed the indicator, and immediately shot the temp.  The engine was 85 degrees before I started, and 285 degrees when I shut down.  It took about 6.5 hours to cool completely to ambient.  Indicated travel was exactly .025".

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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #54 - 05/24/18 at 00:02:33
 
The calculated growth for aluminum 13.5" in length with 200 degree delta T is .033".  That's using .00001244 for the coefficient.  I attribute the .008" variance to the steel studs that are restraining the cylinder and head.  The coefficient for steel is about 51% of aluminum (.00000633).

The chain is also getting hot.  I initially thought that it would run a bit cooler than the cylinder, but after careful consideration I have concluded (just my opinion) that the chain is running pretty close to the same temperature, possibly even hotter.  The chain is encased in a cavity within the cylinder.  I am measureing the temperature on the surface of the cylinder where it is exposed to ambient cooling air.  The chain isn't getting any cooling air, not much cooling oil either.  If your thinking the oil is cooling off the chain, remember the oil is about 220 to 250 degrees, ambient air was 85 degrees.  So essentially, the chain is in an oven cooking at about 300 degrees.  Just my opinion.

With the chain growing at about half the rate of the cylinder, the difference in length should now be about .012".  So, with the pawl locking the plunger, I believe that the chain is under about -.012" interference at operating temperature.  In other words the cylinder is about .012" longer than the length of chain running from the centerline of the crank to the centerline of the cam.

This .012" difference is the amount you want to compensate for if you decide to make your tensioner soft (i.e. remove the pawl).  So I wanted to try and measure how much the tensioner plunger retracts for a given movement of the slack  side of the chain.

I removed the pawl from the tensioner and set up dial indicators to read plunger movement vs drive gear movement at  the tooth pitch line.  I took a few crude measurements and determined that the chain sprocket on the crank is roughly half the diameter of the drive gear.  The drive gear is about 3 inches so the sprocket is about 1.5", therefore, movement at the sprocket should be about 1/2 the movement at the drive gear pitch diameter.


I backed the engine up until the intake lobe was at a point where any CCW rotation resulted in movement at the plunger and zero movement at the cam.  The valve springs are so strong that the plunger just backs off when you rotate the engine.  When the gear pitch moved .050" the plunger backed off .100".  I did this several times to verify repeatability.  Since the sprocket is one half the diameter of the gear, .025" movement at the sprocket should retract the plunger .100".


The .012" chain interference is roughly 1/2" of .025" so it seems to me that the plunger needs to retract about .050" to make the chain and cylinder run at equal lengths at normal operating temp.  One millimeter is .040", pretty close Dave.  This data seems to confirm Dave's spacer length which restricts the plunger from moving back more than 1mm.  Setting it up for .050" might be just a tad better but that's splitting hairs.

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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #55 - 05/24/18 at 00:13:37
 
I wanted to see how stable things are with the pawl removed so I did some rotations and gyrations just to see how the plunger reacted.  If I continued to rotate the engine backwards, the plunger would retract about 8mm.  That's a lot.  As the chain wears, and there's more slack, it seems to me you run the risk of jumping a tooth when you are performing maintenance.  Note that the Clymer manual directs you to "rotate the engine clockwise as viewed from the left-hand side".  That's backwards.  Anyone know why they tell you to do that?


I greased up the plunger and rotated it through a few times, then took a pic to give folks a better idea of how much it moves.
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #56 - 05/24/18 at 00:26:56
 
I continued to fiddle with it to see how it behaved without the pawl when rotating in the normal direction of rotation.  The plunger modulates about .09" as you rotate the engine, and at times can make excursions up to up to as much as .15".  The valve springs really are a challenge for this thing.  No way of telling what it's up to when the engine is running.

I noticed that the plunger is a bit rough when its close to fully retracted.  The spring is bunching up a bit and catching on the edge of the chamfer.  I pretty much eliminated that by rounding off the edge of the chamfer in the bore.  I'm not too comfy with all that movin around so I reinstalled my tensioner with the pawl and stock spring.


I hope this data is useful and helps you decide what path to go down.  There seems to be four or five to choose from.  Here is a pic of that sharp edge on the chamfer.


 
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #57 - 05/24/18 at 02:28:21
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 05/24/18 at 00:13:37:
Note that the Clymer manual directs you to "rotate the engine clockwise as viewed from the left-hand side".  That's backwards.  Anyone know why they tell you to do that?


It has always been our assumption that they just made a mistake, and have recommended you turn the engine the same way that it rotates when running.

My 1mm was just a guess at where to begin (thankfully it is pretty close).  My idea was that if I installed the tensioner in the stock form where it measured 10mm of extension.....it would never be less than 10mm and from there the plunger would begin the slow process of getting to 20mm over the next 10 - 20K miles.  If I made the spacer allow an extension of 9mm there would be room for growth when the engine was warm, and if the cylinder wanted more growth it would overtension the chain as before....but not nearly as much as it did when the plunger was locked in at 10mm.  From this point on my chain will begin to stretch and wear - but hopefully at a much slower rate than it used to.

DragBikeMike:  Thanks for your creative work in resolving several of our long term issues (enrichment of the TEV valve, cylinder growth, etc.).  I new that it takes a long time for our engine to cool down after running - 6.5 hours is a bit of a surprise!  I have just installed a cylinder head gauge on my Savage, and it is pretty interesting to watch how the head temperature changes as the load, rpm and air temperatures changes.  On the 70 degree days and backroad 50 mph rides the temperature of the head at the left rear cylinder stud is around 215 degrees.....so far 240 degrees is about the maximum temperature I have recorded when cruising on the superslab.  When I had the Trailtech Vapor on the Savage a 95 degree day stuck in traffic in downtown Gatlinburgh resulted in 300 degrees!
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #58 - 05/24/18 at 11:26:51
 
After a good night's sleep I realized that I missed a very important point.  Quite some time ago I had made a comment regarding "both sides of the chain".  Both sides of the chain are being subjected to the interference.  When the system is hard (pawl installed) it's a wash.  Nothing can give so it's essentially .012 interference.  But when the system is soft (no pawl), you have a condition where the cam rotates as the cylinder grows.  During normal operation the drive side of the chain is fixed and the slack side of the chain is flexible, the tensioner takes up the slack, and the pawl locks things in place.  With the pawl removed, the drive side remains fixed and as the cylinder grows the cam must rotate clockwise.  So removing the pawl also results in your cam timing advancing just a bit as temperature rises.


With the stock cam, that's probably not much to be concerned over, but if you are running a performance stick, and you want to run a soft tensioner,  you might want to do a good check of clearances.  I haven't had the head off yet but from photos I can see that the intake & exhaust valves have lots of distance between them, so valve to valve clearance is most likely not an issue.  But valve to piston might be something to be concerned about.  If you checked that clearnce with the chain system hard, and then switched to a soft system, there's a good chance your valve to piston clearance may be altered because the cam will be at a different position at TDC, and as such your TDC lifts will have changed.
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Re: What happened tensioner mods
Reply #59 - 05/27/18 at 07:36:36
 
DBM ,while it true that the cam will advance as the cylinder grows ,this may be more of a problem on a newer bike ,I f the bike already has some mileage on it ,the cam chain has already stretched and retarded the cam timing , so you may just be "braking even".
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