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Grooved brake shoes (Read 336 times)
justin_o_guy2
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #30 - 05/24/17 at 19:24:31
 
I needed that article.
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Dave
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #31 - 05/25/17 at 03:21:25
 
Dave wrote on 05/24/17 at 17:46:06:
Jog:

Go ahead and use your bolt threads if you want to....and use it to consider the brake shoe issue. No matter how you rotate or turn the bolt, the threads always look the same, and the nut will always move the same direction when you turn the nut on the bolt threads.

Hold the bolt so the hex head is nearest your body.....and the length is away from you.  Take your finger and move it away from you.....and notice the angle of the threads would push your finger to the right side....that is similar to the top of the brake drum moving forward as the bike travels.  Now take your finger and slide it to the bottom of the bolt and pull your finger toward you.....you will see that your finger would still want to go to the right side (same rotation change as the bottom of the brake drum mowing the opposite direction the top is)....the same change occurred when you moved your finger away/toward on the bolt. (The brake shoe threads are actually left hand in appearance - so the bolt example will push the finger in the opposite direction of the brake shoes pictured).

It took me a while to understand - but I get it now.


Jog:  You are being stubborn.  It is not the same as flipping the bolt and being amazed that the nut still moves the same as before.  Unless you actually try what I very carefully typed out - you won't understand.....but you will still be wrong.
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Dave
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #32 - 05/25/17 at 03:52:40
 
[quote author=132D2C20322E2F410 link=1495490102/15#28 date=1495675262] Quote:

Like a lot of things involved with riding motorcycles, using the front brake in a turn can be dangerous if you do it wrong. Which is why it's important to understand how, and why, to do it right.
https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/


That is a very good article.....I do use that technique - but I never understood exactly what folks meant when they said "trail braking".  (I still don't understand how that term relates to braking into a corner).

I read an article from a road racer not long ago, and he was taking time to practice his brake application technique....he felt that by being really smooth on the application & release of the brakes, he could get another 1% faster!  He would get on a downhill slope at walking speed and pull in the clutch, and then pull on the front brake lever just enough that he could feel the pads touch the rotor - but not enough to slow or stop the bike...then he would release, and he would repeat that motion over and over.  He was fine tuning his ability to be a "surgeon" with his brake application.  He believed that smooth application and release of the brakes would give him an edge on the competition.  I have been consciously practicing this as I come to turns or intersections, as it will help me to apply the brakes smoothly when I need to get on the brakes in a hurry.  When I watch the Asian Scooter crash videos - I see so many of them crash when they instantly grab a handful of front brake.....they don't apply the brake linearly and allow the weight to shift onto the front wheel before they get on the brake really hard.

On big open turns at casual speeds, I don't use the brakes and just hold a constant speed.  When I hustle along and I am riding in the "sport" mode - I am on the brakes before and into the entrance of the turn - and there are occasions when I have to apply the brakes to slow down while in the corner as the curve becomes sharper, a car in my lane, or a bad/wet spot in the road.  Braking in a corner can be done safely - but you have to be able to limit the amount of cornering force vs. braking force.

A few years ago one of the younger forum members scolded me when I posted a photo from the Dragon.  They gave me a "Shame on You" when they saw me breaking on the way into a curve....I just let it go as I didn't think they were ready for the truth!

However......when you are learning the front brake can be a very scary thing when you do it wrong!  (Not sure why I can't load links on my computer this morning).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V13lkDkEbqY



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« Last Edit: 05/25/17 at 05:08:30 by Dave »  

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #33 - 05/25/17 at 05:45:03
 
I'll study on it Dave. When I can swallow without my ears making oil can sounds and it doesn't sound like my head is in a barrel when I talk, I'll hit the shop and work it out. Check, when the Balloon sensation goes away, maybe I'll see it right.. Strep throat sux.

Why did he hit the brake?
Gravity is ready and waiting to pounce on anyone who causes front tire to slide. It's Nothing like the rear sliding. I Touched , one finger only, the front brake on the Guzzi in a U turn on gravel. When I stopped sliding my feet were still on the pegs.
I'm gonna play with the Trail Braking ideas.
I tried looking it up about a month ago.. sure didn't find anything close to this article.
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Dave
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #34 - 05/25/17 at 05:52:32
 
JOG:

Sorry your sick - hope your can kick it ASAP.  Being sick is miserable!
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #35 - 05/25/17 at 06:19:51
 
And while we are talking about corner entry and exit lets talk about the safest way to enter a turn. It should be noted that the technique I'm about to advocate is the polar opposite of how you would enter a turn on a race track. On the track you want to "shorten" and "straighten" the corner by entering early, diving towards the apex, and exiting wide. This is the fastest line through the turn and it's called the "Race Line". Braking for this type of turn involves "Threshold Braking" (heavy application of the brakes just before entering the turn) followed by "Trail Braking" to the corner apex.

On the street we don't (or shouldn't) care about the fastest way through the corner, but rather the safest. The priority is a method that gives us maximum visibility through the turn (allowing us to see potential threats) and allowing vehicles in the opposite direction the opportunity to see us. This method is called "Late Apex Turning". I first read about this method 20 years ago in a article written in MCNews by Lee Parks and then later in his book titled "Total Control".

Visualize yourself entering a turn that is 90 degrees to the left (I attempted a drawing - it's crap but it makes the point). On the sketch the red line is the Race Line and the green line represents the Late Apex line. The red rider is diving towards the turn apex. If a car in the opposite direction is over the double yellow line, or if there is a threat past the apex, red rider has little room to maneuver to avoid the problem.

Green rider, riding deeper into the turn, is away from the double yellow line and has the opportunity (space and time) to make corrections. He has created a turn apex that is setback from the double yellow line.

I've also attached an image from triumpthrat.net that also demonstrates the sight line of a late apex turn through a 180 degree blind corner with a decreasing radius. Red rider's race line has taken him directly to the yellow line, whereas green rider has maximum visibility through the turn. On the street, time and space are your friends.

Green rider (for both the 90 degree and blind turns) should have applied smooth braking to the initial turn point, reducing lever pressure at the turn point and then releasing lever pressure just before arriving at the (setback) apex, applying throttle post apex to drive through the turn exit.

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Late_Apex.jpg

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stewmills
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #36 - 05/25/17 at 06:41:02
 
Green Riding is what I usually do at the Dragon and places like that, for 2 reasons.  1: The obvious reason as you have stated as it makes for good visibility and safer exiting of those tight and sometimes blind turns.  2: Although I do offer courtesy and let the go-fast bikers pass me on the brief straightaways, I maintain my left travel lane when approaching as well as through most of the turn to keep anyone from trying to zip past me in a turn causing me to be pushed off the road.

As far as braking, which was sorta the initial topic, I was taught the 80/20 rule in my MSF course. 80% front and 20% rear, and that's sort of my braking style.  However, at places like the Dragon I will ride with my feet up on the highway pegs and seldom shift, and will mostly use 100% methodical front braking throughout and only use the rear if I bring my feet down for any reason.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #37 - 05/25/17 at 07:25:30
 
Another beneficial riding tip..
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Tocsik
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #38 - 05/25/17 at 09:47:52
 
Some good discussion here and I'm pretty sure my understated comment was overreacted to.  It's definitely hard use of the front brake that can get a rider into trouble in a curve or other turn; particularly an inexperienced rider.  Tried using an economy of words initially and apparently created havoc.
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #39 - 05/25/17 at 10:04:25
 
Not really derailed because it was brought up in this thread that trying to maximize the stopping power of the rear brake isn't really going to result in better stopping power. As far as I'm concerned, the rear brake is mostly just an emergency brake if the front ever fails (and they do).

Tocsik wrote on 05/25/17 at 09:47:52:
It's definitely [i]hard use of the front brake that can get a rider into trouble in a curve or other turn; particularly an inexperienced rider.
[/i]

You did it again. You are holding fast to a fabricated "fact" that there is some mystery in using the front brake in a turn that makes it "hard". It's not true, stop repeating it.  Grabbing a whole bunch of front brake is bad - whether in a turn or going straight line. Modulating the front brake in any condition is the proper technique.

Go try some of the very simple techniques that have been discussed. Become a better rider.

And if you think I'm being mean by saying "become a better rider", please take note of my signature. I've been riding motorcycles for over 40 years, have raced on all surfaces, and I'm always looking to become a better rider.
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #40 - 05/25/17 at 10:29:27
 
I meant "hard braking", as in grabbing a handful of front brake in a turn.  Not that the act of braking is hard.
Not trying to be contentious and never claim to be a know it all.  But i'm just not making myself clear or understood.  Agreed we can always improve at most anything.  Everyone I meet will know something I don't!
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Grooved brake shoes
Reply #41 - 05/25/17 at 10:42:34
 
Tocsik wrote on 05/25/17 at 09:47:52:
Some good discussion here and I'm pretty sure my understated comment was overreacted to.  It's definitely hard use of the front brake that can get a rider into trouble in a curve or other turn; particularly an inexperienced rider.  Tried using an economy of words initially and apparently created havoc.


Brilliant!
And the penalty for initially trying the
Economy of Words
Can be Yuge .
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