SuzukiSavage.com - Nonsense brake discussion

Dave

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Nonsense brake discussion
04/27/17 at 06:10:22

Did the motorcycle evolve wrong?

I got to pondering my old motocross and hare scrambles days. My motorcycle was a TM125 Suzuki, and it had small drum brakes and they were pretty poor by current standards. The front brake was really marginal, and I can remember in dry conditions my ability to go fast was limited by how hard I could squeeze the front brake....and in wet conditions it was always a challenge to keep the rear wheel from locking up on those slippery downhill portions leading to the creek bottoms. I believe the same was true of street bikes - the front drum of performance bikes had double leading shoes (4 brakes shoes in each drum), and some even had drums on both sides of the front wheel in an attempt to get braking that could match engine perforance.

So.....knowing that you can stomp on a brake pedal with much more force than you can squeeze a short handlebar mounted lever - should the front brake have been operated by the pedal...and the rear brake operated by a hand lever? Would that have provided the ability to get more power to the front brake....and more precise control to the rear brake?

It really doesn't matter with the current hydraulic disc brakes - there is plenty of power and control available. It may have made a difference with the old drum brake technology.

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Gary_in_NJ Serious Thumper Offline LS650 Cafe Racer Posts: 2633 Amongst the Twisty Roads	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #1 - 04/27/17 at 06:18:05 I'm gonna argue that the lever is a perfect way to engage the front brake, especially a drum brake. My reasoning is this, as important as stopping power, is the smooth application of the brakes. This is especially true for brakes that are grabby. Stomping on a grabby front brake is a quick trip to visit the ground.
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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18142 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #2 - 04/27/17 at 06:25:31 I will admit...that on my trials motorcycle I had more trouble modulating the foot pedal than I did the hand lever.
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stewmills

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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #3 - 04/27/17 at 07:52:39

Yeah, and think about the aspect of gravity in this situation. If you pull too hard on the front brake lever and it throws you forward, yes you tend to "hold on" to the bars but not necessarily with an increase in pressure on the brake lever.

If you stomp on the brake pedal (if it controlled the front brake) and it throws you forward, you may have a tendency to put more foot pressure on the brake pedal making the problem worse, etc. and then you fall down go boom.

Who wants to be the first one to switch up their brake controls and go for a Dragon run and let us know how it works Shocked

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LANCER

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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #4 - 04/27/17 at 08:05:46

stewmills wrote on 04/27/17 at 07:52:39:

Yeah, and think about the aspect of gravity in this situation. If you pull too hard on the front brake lever and it throws you forward, yes you tend to "hold on" to the bars but not necessarily with an increase in pressure on the brake lever.

If you stomp on the brake pedal (if it controlled the front brake) and it throws you forward, you may have a tendency to put more foot pressure on the brake pedal making the problem worse, etc. and then you fall down go boom.

Who wants to be the first one to switch up their brake controls and go for a Dragon run and let us know how it works Shocked

Well ok then, stewmills has volunteered for that assignment !
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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #5 - 04/27/17 at 08:24:31

Interesting ideas.
Riding the trials bike, probably not a smooth road.
Leverage , master cylinder design, caliper design, all affect the brake sensitivity.
Braking just might be improved this way, but I would expect that new riders who never knew the Reflexive use of brakes as we know them would be the ones who could evaluate it.

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verslagen1

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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #6 - 04/27/17 at 08:49:07

stewmills wrote on 04/27/17 at 07:52:39:

Who wants to be the first one to switch up their brake controls and go for a Dragon run and let us know how it works Shocked

I couldn't even handle the switch from left to right on BSA.
But, anyone expecting to go from conventional controls to front to back configuration in a heart beat should also expect earth to meet Heine toot sweet.

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oldNslow

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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #7 - 04/27/17 at 09:23:16

Dave wrote on 04/27/17 at 06:25:31:

I will admit...that on my trials motorcycle I had more trouble modulating the foot pedal than I did the hand lever.

There are some roadracers that have a thumb lever on the left handelbar to operate the rear brake for exactly that reason. They don't use the rear brake a lot, but when they do sensitivity is important. Most people have a lot better dexterity with their hands than with their feet.

I think some stunt bikes are set up with hand operated rear brakes also.

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28853 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #8 - 04/27/17 at 10:40:00 Seems like one more appendage would be handy... (pun intended)...
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raydawg

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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #9 - 04/27/17 at 12:31:13

I will say I think brakes are set up in a manner to give the most optimal braking need under an extreme need, like you have to stop as fast as you can.....
And that being the case I want my foot in a spot that can provide balance, and my hand(s)with the ability to still navigate (turn) in that critical moment.
All the rest is more about riding style, I believe....

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« Last Edit: 04/27/17 at 16:08:22 by raydawg »

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Ruttly Serious Thumper Online Thumpers Rule Posts: 5170 Manteca , CA Gender:	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #10 - 04/27/17 at 12:36:29 I love R & D stuff , but I'm gonna pass on this one !
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Tocsik Serious Thumper Offline the singularity Posts: 1176 Denver, CO Gender:	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #11 - 04/27/17 at 12:36:40 Serowbot wrote on 04/27/17 at 10:40:00: Seems like one more appendage would be handy... (pun intended)...
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engineer Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 872 Gender:	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #12 - 04/27/17 at 19:08:16 I vaguely remember riding a small displacement bike or scooter once that had hand levers for the front and back brakes. Whatever it was existed in the 50s or early 60s and had a centrifugal clutch which left room for the second brake lever. The set up worked OK for what it was.
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Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Reply #13 - 04/27/17 at 20:10:48

The Honda CT90 s had a rear brake that worked with the pedal or right side lever. It was a ok set up but it really came in handy when off road and in the low range , if the bike could get traction it would take you anywhere and when in tight slow areas standing on the pegs it worked really good. What great bike , power of a lawn mower , but could go anywhere but on the freeway. Did a one day 250 mile trip on mine ,all back roads.

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MMRanch Serious Thumper Offline Evil flourishes if Good Men do Nothing. Posts: 5864 LYNCHBURG TN Gender:	Re: Nonsense brake discussion Reply #14 - 04/27/17 at 22:30:38 My friend Charles has an old G-Wing. It has front brake "can be applied by its self" , and rear brake pedal that is like a car break pedal. The rear pedal applies both brakes. I like to use the rear by itself for manovering purpouses , but Charles dosn't have that option ...
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