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Jetting and carb bolt query. (Read 119 times)
eau de sauvage
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Jetting and carb bolt query.
12/15/16 at 23:31:41
 
Bought a set of SS alan head bolts for the carb but I was unable to get the old washers off! The bolts were in good condition and I got them off with an impact driver without damaging the head so put some anti seize on and reused them. However I'll be wanting to put them in next time, is there some trick to getting the split washers off.

Put in 55 pilot jet today from the stock 52.5, have it at two turns out, I was able to get the engine to slow down a bit at three turns out but it wouldn't die, although it did die at one turn out. Does this mean I should go for a 57.5

I'm at sea level and it's generally hot here. Still have the stock muffler and air filter although I will be putting a dyna on soon. Main jet is standard and seems OK so far. Didn't do the spacer mod yet, it was a big day for me so I didn't have time to get the top off and check the spacer size needed. I'm hoping someone can let me know what the OD and ID of the spacer washers need to be so I can have them ready next time.
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #1 - 12/16/16 at 09:55:46
 
First, this post is in the wrong section. Questions like this should go in Rubber Side Down. This section is reserved for technical articles and reference.

I would suggest that you get some #4 SS lock washers to go with your new SS Cap Bolts.

On the pilot, was the engine completely warmed up and the air cleaner serviced when you adjusted the carb? In my opinion, a 57.5 seems a bit large for a stock engine.

For most the riding we do (not often at WOT) shimming the needle has a greater impact on throttle response and performance then a larger main. Number 4 washers are also used to shim the needle.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #2 - 12/16/16 at 10:38:22
 
I changed my carburetor screws to SS Allen Head screws, except the 2 tiny screws inside the carburetor. I didn't have any #4 lock washers on hand at  the time . I put the everything back together and just used flat washers and I checked the screws periodically for the first couple of thousand miles and I never found a loose screw.

It would be better to have lock washers but I am guessing that the rubber connector between the engine and carburetor isolate the vibration enough to keep the screws from coming loose.

I do ride sensibly, but I have one frequent trip to the Chop Shop in Keller, TX that I use the Interstate and I must maintain the 70 MPH speed limit or get run over.

The short answer is I think you will be safe without lock washers.

Kenny G
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #3 - 12/16/16 at 12:43:10
 
Sauvage,don't touch that dial! when you turn the screw in your leaning the mix ,that's when it might stall,when you screwed it out it got too rich and slowed down. If at 2 turns you have the highest idle your good and don't need a larger jet.Your screw is between 1-3 turns out and your good.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #4 - 12/16/16 at 23:54:50
 
@Batman, I didn't word my post very well, what I meant was that after changing out the 52.5 to a 55 that is when I could get it to start to stall at one turn out, and maybe slightly begin to stall at 3 turns out. It's happy at 2 turns out at the moment and it's running at a normal temperature now, the overly hot engine is not more.

@Gary, I thought it was in RSD, and when I went to look for it and couldn't find it I thought maybe a mod moved it to the tech, so that's my bad. I will get some lock washers, I guess I just wanted to avoid a 40km round journey to the bolt shop. Yes, bike all warmed up, air filter looked fine, but I'll get some compressed air and give it a blast and check it again. I wanted to get the pilot right first rather than do two mods at once. My first priority was to get the engine heat down, it's been running ridiculously hot, new pilot has fixed that. I'll do the spacer mod in a few weeks when I put a Dyna on. When I install the dyna do you think it's worthwhile testing it first with no spacers?
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #5 - 12/17/16 at 05:03:54
 
The lock washers are "captured" on the stock screws....they are not supposed to come off.

A 57.5 is too big for a stock engine if the carb is clean and there are no air leaks (and a 55 is too big for most engines with the stock air cleaner housing).  For setting the idle fuel screw....start at 1.5 turns from lightly seated.  If you turn the screw in and can the engine doesn't stall (or drop smoothness significantly) when the screw seats - that means the jet is too big.  If the engine begins to run uneven as the screw gets close to being seated....the jet is likely a good size.  As you turn the screw out you should find a place where the engine runs smoothly - if you can't find that as you approach 3 turns out - the jet is likely too small.  You want a jet that provide a smooth idle when it is out between 1.5 - 2.5 turns from lightly seated.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #6 - 12/17/16 at 14:10:23
 
@Dave "The lock washers are "captured" on the stock screws....they are not supposed to come off."

Ah ha, so I wasn't going crazy!

I've given the filter a good blow out with compressed air. It currently has the stock muffler and air filter. Doesn't seem to be any leaks everything looks tight. I'm at sea level with the 55 pilot, and if I start at 1 1/2 turns out, the engine stutters at 1 turn out and dies at 3/4 turn out (from fully seated) sounds good at 2 turns out and drops off at 3 turns out although it doesn't sound that bad.

I can only assume that the 55 pilot is working well at sea level because 1. It's hot here, and 2. it's also fairly humid, which according to other info on this forum tends to create a more lean condition. It did run OK with the 52.5 pilot it felt a bit starved when first accelerating plus it ran really hot, which it doesn't do any longer. I will take everyone's advice and not go to a higher pilot.

Two Questions:...

Once I put the Dyna muffler on, do you think it's worthwhile testing the bike with the jet needle spacer completely removed and no replacement washers? That wouldn't do any harm would it?

Does the pilot jet make a difference up to 1/4 throttle or only up to 1/8 throttle?


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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #7 - 12/17/16 at 15:07:29
 
The pilot makes very little difference on how the bike runs when using any throttle.  If you were feeling lean/surging issues - you likely need to raise your slide needle.

You will likely get a better tune with a 52.5 pilot....if that is what makes the idle fuel screw in the range it should be - combined with raising the needle (remove white spacer and install 3 washers (#4 machines screw), and if you still have a lean surge...remove 1 washer and run 2.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #8 - 12/17/16 at 17:42:16
 
Once you rejet properly, it's a completely different engine! It's really hot and humid here as well, just not right now!  Grin  The 52.5 pilot runs great for me at close to sea level.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #9 - 12/17/16 at 18:33:15
 
@Kris, how much shim do you have in the needle, if any?

@Dave, well it's in a good position now with the 55 at two turns out, and (correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't the Dyna have a effect that would tend to lean the engine if anything? Once I get the Dyna on and reshim the needle, I'll see how it idles then and go back to the 52.5 if necessary, but the 55 is not causing any idle issues atm.


EDIT: OK just gave it another test, this is after a complete blast out of the filter with compressed air, after 6,000kms still in good condition. Carburettor float boat was completely clean when I took it off, everything nice and shiny. I currently have the 55 pilot jet at two turns out and it started up fine but more importantly it was idling at the correct speed which sounds to my ear at 1200. I then took it out for a 30 minute ride, upon returning home it was still idling at the correct speed of 1200 (to my ear). With the old 52.5 pilot jet, it needed a few minutes to warm up before the idles settled down to 1200 even on a hot day. If I set the idle so it didn't need to sit there for 3 minutes warming up then it would be idling too fast when it was warm.

But now it idles perfectly from cold and does not speed up when warm. OK maybe a bit but I'm doing it by ear.

Then I checked the idle mix when warm with the 55 jet. It stumbles at 1 turn out and dies completely at 1/2 turn out. Seems OK at 1 1/2 turns out, speeds up a bit at 2 turns out starts to stumble again at 3 turns out. I ended up setting it to 1 3/4 turns out.

As for a riding test, I set markers on the throttle. I set the 0 point with all the slack taken out. At 1/8 throttle it cruises along happily in 2nd gear at about 40 kph, in 3rd gear at 1/8 throttle it cruises smoothly at about 55-60 kph which is the speed limit around here. If I'm cruising at 1/8 throttle in 3rd at 55kph and just open up the throttle to half way, it accelerates instantly with no lag and it's pulling strongly all the way to 90kph at which point I get scared because the place is crawling with poppo this time of year. Pulls just as well from 1/8 throttle in 2nd. It feels excellent.

At this stage I can't feel any need to adjust the needle spacers, but I will reassess after the Dyna install.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #10 - 12/17/16 at 18:46:08
 
3 #4 washers @ ~0.040" thick ea. = almost 1/8"
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There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #11 - 12/17/16 at 19:32:21
 
@Kris, I just did an edit to my post. That makes sense, I'm not sure what the standard spacer is here as I haven't had the top off yet, but see my post above, I'm not detecting any need to change it, pulls really well from 1/8th throttle to 1/2 throttle. Do you have a Dyna muffler, and standard air filter or some other set up?

EDIT: I should also mention that my original jet and the replacement jet does not have the holes in the side like the photos in Lancer's jets for sale. I'm not sure what this means or if holes in the jets are standard in the US and what effect it has compared to jets without holes.
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #12 - 12/18/16 at 07:13:38
 
The holes in the side of the pilot jet do nothing on the Savage carb.  Those pilot jets with holes are for carbs with an "air idle screw"....and when you turn the air idle screw it allows more air to come into the side of those holes in the pilot jet and mix with the fuel before it flow through the orifice (#50,#52.5,@55, etc.).  When you adjust the air mixture screw to allow more air to flow - it reduces the amount of fuel passing through the jet, and it leans out the mixture passing through the pilot jet.  

The Savage carb uses a "fuel idle screw" and it does not have passages that bring air to the side of the pilot jet.  So.....it doesn't matter if you use a pilot jet with or without the holes in the side....as they won't do anything.  When you adjust the fuel mixture screw it regulates the flow of fuel - it does not affect the flow of air that occurs after the fuel passes through the pilot jet.

The Mikuni Round slide VM carb that we use as a replacement for the stock carb uses and "air idle screw", and those holes in the side of the pilot jet do function on that carb.    
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Re: Jetting and carb bolt query.
Reply #13 - 12/18/16 at 09:56:31
 
eau de sauvage wrote on 12/17/16 at 19:32:21:
Do you have a Dyna muffler, and standard air filter or some other set up?


Kris01 wrote on 12/17/16 at 18:46:08:
2008 Boulevard S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers


Wink
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There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
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