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Rocker arm wear reference (Read 323 times)
justin_o_guy2
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What happened?
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East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #15 -
11/05/16 at 15:14:36
That's a good deal. IDK what mods are allowed there. Someone said something about not being allowed to change intake or exhaust, something, I don't remember who,, or the details..
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Gary_in_NJ
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Amongst the Twisty Roads
Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #16 -
11/05/16 at 15:21:39
The cam and rockers show spalling so they need to be addressed. Your choices are weld and regrind or new parts. If the bearing surfaces are worn you have no choice but new parts.
How many miles are on the engine and what were the oil change intervals?
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Mekh
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #17 -
11/06/16 at 01:13:08
There are 63.000 km on the bike and I have put around 15000 of them there.
I have no history from before I bought it.
I have changed oil quite often... Especially the first times, since it had been standing still a long time.
Think I've changed oil every 2-3k km.
Maybe it's easier to just state this... I read most of all, yes, all... threads on this forum, before I had put 500km on the bike, so have had a very good idea of how to take good care of my Savage from the beginning. Based on all the collective knowledge here, which is awsome... 😁
My personal guess at a reason is, that the previous owner have had the idle too low.
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Mekh
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #18 -
11/06/16 at 01:26:10
justin_o_guy2 wrote
on 11/05/16 at 15:14:36:
That's a good deal. IDK what mods are allowed there. Someone said something about not being allowed to change intake or exhaust, something, I don't remember who,, or the details..
That should be no problem at all... As long as I don't increase power more than 20% I think it is, or cut in the frame then all is good.
However... the 20% limit is from my experience more theoretical than practized around here.
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Mekh
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #19 -
11/06/16 at 02:09:06
Updated main post with 2 more photos, showing bearing surfaces.
I cannot feel any play in the cam shaft when placed in the bearing surfaces, so I think the surfaces are still OK.
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LANCER
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #20 -
11/06/16 at 03:28:33
Your head bearing surfaces look to be ok.
They have some scratching on them but they are usable after a little cleanup of the surface.
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Dave
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #21 -
11/06/16 at 04:46:26
Used rockers arms and cams that are in good condition are nearly impossible to find, as they are the first parts to show wear if the wrong oil is used.
Since the cam bearings are not worn excessively, and the rocker arms and cam lobes are....I would place the blame on using an oil without an adequate amount of ZDDP.
Getting your cam welded and reground is most likely the best way to get your cam issue resolved. I can buy new rockers from Bike Bandit next time they have a 10% discount sale and shipping will be free.....and I could have them shipped to Lancer so he could ship them back with your welded/reground cam. Last time I checked the rockers were about $ 56 each.
I don't know how to help with the tariffs.
Dave
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Armen
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #22 -
11/06/16 at 06:11:08
So, how is it that the aluminum surfaces are ok and the steel surfaces are roached? I get it that the cam-to-rocker surface is further downstream on the oiling, but it's kinda crazy that the head survived.
Makes me think the head has some basic design flaws in the oil flow department. There are literally hundreds of thousands of bikes out there with cams running directly in the head, and rocker arms, and they aren't all murdering the cams and rockers.
The last time I saw this problem in epidemic proportions was on the early Honda Interceptors.
Honda sent out all sorts of service bulletins trying to address the issue. Nothing really worked. Turned out the real problem was that the oiling to the top end was inadequate. There are kits to reroute cleaner, cooler oil to the cams on the V-4s that solve the problem. Honda just tap danced for years, then completely redesigned the motor.
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In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
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Dave
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #23 -
11/06/16 at 08:21:00
The cam bearings don't need ZDDP, the pressure of the cam against the head is within the ability of the oil to lubricate. The cam/rocker load is very high when the cam is pushing on the rocker to open the valves, and the curved rocker and curved cam lobes provide very little surface area where the contact is being made.....and the result is a pressure than can exceed the shear strength of the oil....and you can get metal to metal contact - unless there is some ZDDP particles in there to prevent the metal to metal contact from occurring.
A lot of the older bikes just had a single valve pushing on each rocker....this engine has 2 valves that need to be opened, and the resulting pressure is more than the wimpy 600 ppm ZDDP level can deal with.
Did Suzuki fix this problem....maybe. Somewhere around 2004/2005 the rockers were modified to have a hardened insert, and so far I have not seen any engine where the newer rockers have failed. I am sure they could fail if you ran the engine low on oil - but that generally kills the bearing surfaces before it kills the rockers and cam lobes.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1476207917
Youzguyz has proven that the early rockers and cam can survive for 155,00 plus miles without wearing out - so the early rockers can survive if a proper engine oil is used.
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Someday I will be old......But not today!
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Mekh
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #24 -
11/19/16 at 06:11:46
Just to post a few photos of the new rocker arms and cam shaft.
I suppose they are as close as they can come to a "reference" of how they could/should look
The cam shaft is Black/dark so rather difficult to capture the surfaces of it in a decent photograph.
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Mekh
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Re: Rocker arm wear reference
Reply #25 -
11/19/16 at 06:36:00
Well... This photo is not specifically related to the topic, but just wanted to show a handy little tool I made to clean the (gasket) surfaces on the cylinder head etc. now that I had to dissassemble the head and cover.
Soft copper edge and a stainless steel handle.
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