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Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 (Read 839 times)
Dave
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #45 - 11/19/16 at 08:54:39
 
piedmontbuckeye wrote on 11/19/16 at 06:03:56:
For example, someone has mentioned 2,000 ppm as the amount one needs of ZDDP to have in their oil.  Where does this number come from?  Just because that is what Shell has in its oil (if it really does have that amount)?  Why not 1,900"  or 1,800? Where is the correct LOW number as needed and defined SCIENTIFICALLY and on this particular product (i.e. the Suzuki)?  Could other factors affect things?  

Get over yourself.  You are probably impressing others, but not me!


Nobody quoted 2,000 ppm of ZDDP in this thread, and anything over 1,400 ppm of ZDDP can cause wear and is not recommended (except during the cam break in).

The 1,200 ppm that I quoted is the amount of ZDDP that was the maximum allowed in motor oils prior to first ZDDP reduction that occurred in the 1990' - the Suzuki Savage first came on the market in 1986 and most likely was designed to operate with that oil in the engine.

Here is a link to a very good oil article, and a quote from that article:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/03/choosing-right-oil/

ZDDP Reductions
In recent years, the critical anti-wear additive ZDDP has been gradually reduced to help extend the life of the catalytic converter (phosphorus can contaminate the catalyst if the engine is using oil).

Back in the 1980s, motor oils typically contained around 1500 PPM (parts per million) of ZDDP. In the 1990s, that was reduced to 1200 PPM, then down to around 800 PPM in 2005.

That level of anti-wear additive is adequate for overhead cam engines and pushrod engines that have roller cams, but it has proved to be inadequate for engines with flat tappet cams, causing accelerated cam lobe and lifter wear – especially if stiffer valve springs are used.


I use and recommend Rotella T and T-6 because they are affordable, easy to find at most retail stores, auto stores, truck stops, and it does the job.  I have also used Brad Penn - but it is more expensive and hard to find.

If you want to use something else - that is OK......you can use whatever you believe is necessary and keeps you and your motorcycle cruising along smoothly.
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Kris01
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #46 - 11/19/16 at 09:30:03
 
We recommend Rotella because it works for us. No one has had any problems with it and most of us report better performance with the clutch and a smoother running engine with Rotella as compared to Brand X. Feel free to try something else. If you do, PLEASE report back to us what your experiences were. We'd love to have decent alternatives to Rotella (just in case).  Wink
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There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
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piedmontbuckeye
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #47 - 11/20/16 at 04:43:48
 
"Rubber Side Down is kept completely factual as it is read by new people who cannot separate "opinion" from best practices.   In Rubber Side down we stick to best practices, things proven and known."

Now I feel better!  Everything here is "factual."  Not like I haven't heard THAT before!!
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #48 - 11/20/16 at 07:28:41
 

Also please be aware that Dave is the nice Moderator ..... ditto for Serobot.    Verslagen is more to the point (as you can tell) and I only get out of my Baralounger very very rarely to handle other matters.

You need to stop and READ the posting guidelines for the various sections as they are different as some areas permit more non-factual stuff (some permit quite a lot actually).   This is by design, as a motorcycle bound factual only list is sorta boring in the long run.   We have different areas, and different rules accordingly.

Read the posting guidelines for each section, realize that we post most of the casual chatter stuff while drinking coffee in the Cafe, and all the rotgut bawdy stuff down in the basement while gathered around the Tall Table.

I might suggest you limit your posting more to the Cafe area .... you don't seem to own any real facts right now to share in Rubber Side down area at the moment and I for one would not want you to try "half answering" newbie questions with no facts and with no real knowledge to back it up.

In essence, all you are doing at the moment is maintaining a little "I really didn't start it on purpose" oil war.    This list uses "wars" of various sorts to discover the facts about new items that are coming up.  

And yes, we are having a war over the CK-4 roll out on Rotella oil specs, as the new specs are being hidden at the moment (by regulation, actually) and the change is being "phased in" with a level of secrecy that really bugs many of us at the moment.   Oil is important to a Savage as we ARE an antique flat tappet engine that runs very high tappet stress forces on our oils.   And we have a wet clutch, too.

Understand that WHERE you post has a bearing on what you post and vice versa -- put it in the right section and life is sweet.

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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #50 - 11/20/16 at 20:21:19
 
This thread is nuts.  You guys must have an awful lot of time on you hands!

My motto is to never discuss politics or religion because people argue and many have such a hard time accepting others beliefs.  It makes it hard for some to be friends after such discussions.  

I've just added oil to my list.  
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #51 - 11/20/16 at 20:41:33
 

Yup, oil is on the list.

Newbies have several times found themselves transported down to the bomb churned earth in between the trench lines, unexpectedly finding themselves plunked right on down into No Man's Land and they had to scramble hard to find them some cover.

It shocks them to hear the wheeeeet of all the bullets going past, and the mortar fire and the flame throwers are very very unwelcome (should somebody be so impolite as to use one).

Lucas of late (unless they have changed radically lately, in which case somebody should show us a new bottle to look at) has always checked out to be a 600 ppm SN grade car oil.

And we are serious, Lucas' engineers really haven't recommend the thick goopy additive stuff for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines.

But, actually, I do love to be wrong you know -- it just takes a picture or two and an couple of source reference links and I can be wrong all over again ......

Roll Eyes

And the neat thing is, you can be RIGHT !!!
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #52 - 11/20/16 at 21:36:05
 
Ohiomoto , get used to it,these guys get crazy, they might be ready to declare War , A Oil War , Black Gold , Texas Tea, Swimmin Pools, Moive Stars

OIL WAR , Toga , Toga , Toga

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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #53 - 11/20/16 at 21:43:39
 
I love the smell of Rotella burning in the morning,smells like Victory !
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #54 - 11/21/16 at 05:23:49
 
I intended my post to be information sharing -

I hope no-one took it as  a battle cry.

If you are looking for war you will certainly find it ... and blame the other for starting it.
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Kris01
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #55 - 11/21/16 at 17:47:35
 
Papa Bear wrote on 11/21/16 at 05:23:49:
If you are looking for war you will certainly find it ...


But you're Canadian!?!?  Grin
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There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #56 - 11/21/16 at 20:30:56
 
Either way, I'm going on a buying spree.
I have a backhoe and bike that like Rotella as it was.
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piedmontbuckeye
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #57 - 11/23/16 at 10:29:04
 
If you read back through this thread, I had only mentioned Lucas because that is what I was used to, and I use it on my first oil change on my new-to-me Suzuki.  I wasn't making any sort of judgement on any other than to ask for the source and proof of the benchmark numbers I was getting.  If I could post this comment somewhere else I would, but I wanted to respond to your comment.

I, like anyone else. I suppose, will respond back when attacked or when being belittled - regardless of the forum I am in!!

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 11/20/16 at 07:28:41:

Also be aware that Dave is the nice Moderator ..... ditto for Serobot.    Verslagen is more to the point (as you can tell) and I only get out of my Baralounger very very rarely to handle other matters.

You need to stop and READ the posting guidelines for the various sections as they are different as some areas permit more non-factual stuff (some permit quite a lot actually).   This is by design, as a motorcycle bound factual only list is sorta boring in the long run.   We have different areas, and different rules accordingly.

Read the posting guidelines for each section, realize that we post most of the casual chatter stuff while drinking coffee in the Cafe, and all the rotgut bawdy stuff down in the basement while gathered around the Tall Table.

I might suggest you limit your posting more to the Cafe area .... you don't seem to own any real facts right now to share in Rubber Side down area at the moment and I for one would not want you to try "half answering" newbie questions with no facts and with no real knowledge to back it up.

In essence, all you are doing at the moment is maintaining a little "I really didn't start it on purpose" oil war.    This list uses "wars" of various sorts to discover the facts about new items that are coming up.  

And yes, we are having a war over the CK-4 roll out on Rotella oil specs, as the new specs are being hidden at the moment (by regulation, actually) and the change is being "phased in" with a level of secrecy that really bugs many of us at the moment.   Oil is important to a Savage as we ARE an antique flat tappet engine that runs very high tappet stress forces on our oils.   And we have a wet clutch, too.

Understand that WHERE you post has a bearing on what you post and vice versa -- put it in the right section and life is sweet.


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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #58 - 11/23/16 at 13:45:09
 
Exactly right on the CK-4

The real truth (not my opinion or belief) will be born-out by VOAs and UOAs on the products and by input from experienced tribologists in the field of motorcycles, flat tappets and wet clutches.

One of the guys at BITOG is a motorcycle oil specialist along with the trusted oil oil engineers there.

When I got my SYM a while ago I PMed Molakule at BITOG and got his take on my bike and oil choice(s)  - he had 2 thumbs up for RotellaT too.

Moly and ZDDP are not "the holy grail" but used with other ingredients in proper base stock recipe everything comes together to satisfy the requirements of motorcycle flat tappet wet clutch durability and protection.

Testing, oil blending, tear-down inspections and VOA-UOAs "PROVE" what works.

Read some of the research from Lubrizol on oil additives... some of it is like magic. And the drastically improved base-stocks make additives less important in many cases.

For us it's important that an oil be JASO MA and we'll have to see if the new generation of diesel oils CK-4 PC-11 meet that standard too.

As Bob Dylan said so well "Times, they are a-changin'"  Wink


I found this while searching JASO MA oils
http://www.eaglesnesttx.com/swamp/xs650/build/wet%20clutch%20oil%20list.pdf
If you scroll down you will find that SOPUS (Shell Oil Products U.S.) makes the Suzuki oils ...

Information is POWER !!  Cool

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2011 Fox Orange S40 SOLD

Check out http://www.hogsforhospice.com/
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piedmontbuckeye
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Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40
Reply #59 - 11/24/16 at 04:36:43
 
I think this quote below is an excellent one!  As I had said previo0usly, on my next oil change I, too, will changeover to the Rotella (probably the semi-synthetic version).

When on the BMW Forum Website, one of the mods had done pretty extensive research on various brands and levels (about 20 total) having them tested, but I forget his results off the top of my head.  

Papa Bear wrote on 11/23/16 at 13:45:09:
Exactly right on the CK-4

The real truth (not my opinion or belief) will be born-out by VOAs and UOAs on the products and by input from experienced tribologists in the field of motorcycles, flat tappets and wet clutches.

One of the guys at BITOG is a motorcycle oil specialist along with the trusted oil oil engineers there.

When I got my SYM a while ago I PMed Molakule at BITOG and got his take on my bike and oil choice(s)  - he had 2 thumbs up for RotellaT too.

Moly and ZDDP are not "the holy grail" but used with other ingredients in proper base stock recipe everything comes together to satisfy the requirements of motorcycle flat tappet wet clutch durability and protection.

Testing, oil blending, tear-down inspections and VOA-UOAs "PROVE" what works.

Read some of the research from Lubrizol on oil additives... some of it is like magic. And the drastically improved base-stocks make additives less important in many cases.

For us it's important that an oil be JASO MA and we'll have to see if the new generation of diesel oils CK-4 PC-11 meet that standard too.

As Bob Dylan said so well "Times, they are a-changin'"  Wink


I found this while searching JASO MA oils
http://www.eaglesnesttx.com/swamp/xs650/build/wet%20clutch%20oil%20list.pdf
If you scroll down you will find that SOPUS (Shell Oil Products U.S.) makes the Suzuki oils ...

Information is POWER !!  Cool


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"The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers
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