Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind (Read 119 times)
old_rider
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Backyard Bill
Productions

Posts: 3147
flordia panhandle
Gender: male
Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
10/08/16 at 10:22:13
 
Broke the front ring on my rear driveshaft.... was wondering what it is for and can I get by without it?

Back to top
 
 

We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
  IP Logged
Ruttly
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Thumpers Rule

Posts: 5107
Manteca , CA
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #1 - 10/08/16 at 10:32:47
 
Looks like a oil seal ? You need it !
Back to top
 
 

The Topic Terminator
  IP Logged
old_rider
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Backyard Bill
Productions

Posts: 3147
flordia panhandle
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #2 - 10/08/16 at 11:42:28
 
Not an oil seal...
It simple goes around the front, it has a rubber seal inbetween it and the outter ring.
I think it is a dampener of sorts.... or balance?
Looks like it gets pressed on, so I will have to take the shaft back off anyway to put it back on.
Truck is shuddering on every gear when torque is applied... I thought of the first cheap fix would be the U-joints... didn't help, still does it.
It threw a code for number 8 cylinder misfire when I took it for a spin after replacing the drive shaft (minus the ring).
So my next adventure is the back right plug and coil over..... If that fixes it I will feel soooo much better...
Because if it doesn't... it means a tranny rebuild.... and I don't have the time or patience for that....soooo probably about 1,200 bucks around here. Angry
Back to top
 
 

We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
  IP Logged
Ruttly
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Thumpers Rule

Posts: 5107
Manteca , CA
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #3 - 10/08/16 at 11:58:15
 
Maybe just a dust seal to keep crap away from slip yoke seal
Back to top
 
 

The Topic Terminator
  IP Logged
Todd James
Full Member
***
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 238
Mansfield, Ohio
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #4 - 10/08/16 at 23:36:53
 
That ring on the front yoke of your drive shaft is called
a "torsional dampener" (or damper).

Its function is to reduce inherent vibrations caused by the torsional
twisting (winding and unwinding) of the drive shaft under load and
by the minor drive shaft speed variations induced by the geometries
of the U-joints. It isn't a balancer. It's simply a rubber mounted
rotating mass that helps to smooth out vibrations.

It performs essentially the same function as the rubber mounted
vibration dampener on the front of the engine crankshaft.

You would probably not notice any difference in driving your truck
if it is removed.  But it may help to prolong the life of the oil seal and
bearing on the output shaft of the transmission if you have a drive
shaft assembly that is prone to torsional vibration.
Back to top
 
 

2007 S40, Dyna, 52.5/150, .073 Spacer, 2 Turns
2007 Sportster 1200, V&H Pipes
  IP Logged
old_rider
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Backyard Bill
Productions

Posts: 3147
flordia panhandle
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #5 - 10/09/16 at 06:31:45
 
Thanks Todd James!

I posted also in my F150 forum.... and got a similar answer, however not as exact as yours.
I was also told I would have to have my shaft re-balanced with a new ring installed, I just don't know where to get it done, and really need the truck for this coming winter....
I drive it 150 miles a day to and from work, so its get it fixed or ride the savage all winter...
I am now hoping it is the misfiring cylinder causing the shudder.... going to pony up and buy a coil over from an autoparts store where they charge an arm and leg for them (bought a set online for 80 bucks)
Back to top
 
 

We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #6 - 10/09/16 at 08:14:14
 
I've seen a shudder caused by oil on the clutch, grabs and slips, rinse, repeat
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
Steve H
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1223
Spartanburg, SC
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #7 - 10/09/16 at 19:17:26
 
JOG, you read my mind.  Had an old F100 that did that due to leaky oil seal. New seal and clutch disc, no more problem.
Back to top
 
 

87 LS650, 2005 Ninja 250, 2009 Yamaha C3, 2001 Honda Reflex. On 2 wheels since 6/80.
  IP Logged
Kris01
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Eat, sleep, RIDE!

Posts: 3767
Tennessee
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #8 - 10/09/16 at 19:29:26
 
Todd James wrote on 10/08/16 at 23:36:53:
That ring on the front yoke of your drive shaft is called a "torsional dampener" (or damper).


That little rubber ring?  Huh It doesn't look like it would have enough mass.
Back to top
 
 

There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
  IP Logged
Todd James
Full Member
***
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 238
Mansfield, Ohio
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #9 - 10/09/16 at 22:19:47
 
Hi Kris

The ring itself is metal;  usually steel or ductile iron.
It has a rubber ring bonded to its I.D.
The rubber ring is a press fit on to the O.D. of the U-joint yoke.

If you look closely at the picture that old-rider posted you can see the crack
in the metal ring at the 5:00 position.
Back to top
 
 

2007 S40, Dyna, 52.5/150, .073 Spacer, 2 Turns
2007 Sportster 1200, V&H Pipes
  IP Logged
Todd James
Full Member
***
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 238
Mansfield, Ohio
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #10 - 10/09/16 at 23:23:26
 

old-rider wrote:  "I was also told I would have to have my shaft re-balanced with a new ring installed"



If you need to have your drive shaft re-balanced it won't be because you installed a new torsional
dampener or even just left it off entirely.  It doesn't provide a balancing function. In fact, if you examine
your dampener you won't find any balance marks (blind drill holes) or weights on it.  With its small diameter
and its location on the drive line assembly any of its inherent imbalance is of little or no consequence
at the normal speeds of a street-driven vehicle.

Imbalance of the drive shaft torque tube itself is another matter.
An imbalance of the torque tube, especially near its midpoint between U-Joints or carrier bearings, will
cause the tube to whip and magnify the effects of the imbalance.

The only reason you should have to rebalance your drive shaft is if you've lost a balance weight on it or damaged it.

Back to top
 
 

2007 S40, Dyna, 52.5/150, .073 Spacer, 2 Turns
2007 Sportster 1200, V&H Pipes
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #11 - 10/10/16 at 04:07:42
 
If it's a balance issue it will be speed related, torque won't do it.
If it's shuddering taking off from a start, that's clutch.
If you can get rolling and Then as you pick up speed it starts hopping around, and At Speed, slipped into neutral, it's Still hopping around, then you have a balance problem.

Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
Kris01
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Eat, sleep, RIDE!

Posts: 3767
Tennessee
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #12 - 10/10/16 at 18:09:47
 
Thanks Todd. I thought everyone was saying it was solid rubber.

I've always pictured a driveshaft imbalance as trying to whip a string of dough around while holding both ends. The middle bends between your hands and slings outwards. That damper won't do squat to balance the shaft. It just provides mass to smooth out vibrations.



Some info I found:

Drive line Critical speed
What it is –
Every rotating object has a “critical” speed or resonant speed, which is a function of its design, mass and stiffness. This is when the driveshaft is whipping in the middle, rather than spinning on a true centerline. For a driveshaft, this is also called “first bending mode”, indicating the shaft actually bows out into a boomerang shape (on a micro-scale). This first mode bending speed is usually referred to in a driveshaft frequency.

What it does –
The energy stored and released through the deflection of the driveshaft through the resonance creates lateral and vertical accelerations of >10g at the problem frequency, which results in broken transmission extension housings, cases and causes moderate to severe vibration at highway speeds (> 70 mph), particularly with axle ratios numerically higher than 3.27:1. This energy release, when compounded by excessive driveshaft imbalance (some is good, too much or too little is not), companion flange run out/imbalance and excessive driveline angles provides the driver with excessive vibration and boom and tortures the driver and driveline components in general.

Because of this, most vehicles have a speed limiter to prevent from entering this mode and causing damage to the driveline.

Some detail –
As mentioned above, the driveshaft rotates at a certain speed based on rear axle ratio; tire size and road speed, but is independent of engine speed (unless you have a vehicle such as a Porsche 944 or C5 Corvette which utilize torque tubes and transaxles, in which case the driveshaft turns at engine speed).

The factors governing driveshaft critical speed include its material properties (i.e., Bulk Modulus of Elasticity which is roughly analogous to material stiffness), diameter, and length and to a lesser degree, wall thickness.

The only factor you can really modify to affect critical speed is material choice. Length is package-dictated, and diameter is usually constrained by driveline tunnel space as well. The answer then becomes a bit simpler – replace your steel shaft with an aluminum or MMC (metal matrix composite) shaft. Both offer reduced weight, which is key in this frequency range. MMC offers the additional bonus of additional damping and stiffness over a typical aluminum alloy.

As mentioned above, at the frequencies in question, a change in rotational mass has a greater impact on resonant frequency than a change in stiffness does, partly since it is easier to reduce mass than increase stiffness (adding stiffness almost invariably means adding mass -- a vicious circle), but particularly since resonant frequency is equal to the sqrt (k/m), where m is mass and k is stiffness. Here m is a stronger function being the in the denominator of a square root. So you can see that as “m” gets smaller, the resonant frequency “f” gets much bigger.
Eureka (From Dennis Reinhart):


The use of an aluminum shaft provides a dual purpose – increasing critical speed out of the operating range AND directly reduces the rotational forces since those rotational forces are governed by:

F = mr w**2
Where w is rotation speed, m is the mass and r is the radius at which it is spinning.

This means that a 50% reduction in rotational mass results in 50% less rotational force. So, when a driveshaft rotates out of true, due to run out of the shaft itself or due to trans output shaft or axle companion flange run out, the reduced mass * the radius of gyration (i.e., run out) product is smaller than for the same conditions with a steel shaft.

This becomes important not only at critical speed, but at more normal operational speeds where the effects of run out and mass imbalance are more evident than those of resonance:

For a typical Fox or SN95 Mustang, driveline critical speed is around 95-100 Hz. Using stock tires we have the following:

225-60R15, 225-55R16, 245-45R17 all rotate at 812-820 revs/mile at 60 mph.

This give is 13.5 Hz wheel frequency at 60 mph, and assuming a 3.27 axle, we then have:

812/60*3.27 or 44.25 Hz , driveline frequency.

So, 100/44.25*60 yields a driveline critical VEHICLE speed of 135 mph. A good rule of thumb states that the objectionable driveline forces will start becoming significant at 70% of resonant frequency, so for the case of the 3.27 axle, the boom and vibration may be felt beginning at 95 mph.

Typically, 3.27 axles don’t provide the driver with much to complain about; it is 3.73 and above which create the concerns. Using a 3.73, we find that

13.53*3.73 gives 50.5 Hz wheel frequency at 60 mph (substantially higher than the 3.27)

And the critical VEHICLE speed then becomes

100/50.5*60 or 119 mph.

Taking 70% of 119 mph equals 83 mph, certainly a speed at which some Mustang drivers experience occasionally.

For a 4.10 axle, the “70% speed” is 76 mph!

Compounding this problem are factors like transmission output shaft run out, imbalances and run outs from components such as the reverse sun gear, driveshaft, companion flange and pinion pitch line run out (a torque induced run out created when the pinion tries to crawl up the face of the ring gear involutes).

Combine these factors and the already marginal NVH resulting from proximity to 1st bending (critical speed) and the NVH becomes absolutely agricultural.

The aluminum shaft minimizes the contribution from companion flange run out and the driveshaft’s own run out, directly due the lower mass. The pinion is free to pitch +/- 20 degrees and adding in any run outs of the companion flange or driveshaft at the pinion end results in the driveshaft mass having a large eccentric path to wobble about. It is this path times the mass of the driveshaft, which gives the characteristic boom and vibration at highway speeds.

Thus, as Newton predicted, as mass decreases so will the forces. That is why an aluminum shaft is your friend when coupled to 3.73s.

One side note: that great big mass on your pinion nose, fondly named by driveline engineers after the appendage on a male moose, is tuned to 45 Hz, the frequency at which the 2nd order forces created by u-joints as they rotate, force the pinion to bounce or pitch up and down and shake you by the seat of your pants and create an uncomfortable boom in the car. Once again run outs and imbalances will modulate this 2nd order driveline phenomenon to make it worse, so the moral is, LEAVE THE MOOSEB-, uh, DAMPER ON the pinion nose!

Another item: you CAN expect more axle noise when using an aluminum shaft however, which does not necessarily mean the pinion depth or side shims are incorrect, or that the gear cutting process is flawed. It just means that the aluminum shaft is more willing to “bend” circumferentially, torsionally and in a double hump (2nd bending) much more easily than a steel shaft.

Recall my prior statements at the very beginning about aluminum stiffness vs. steel? Picture a piece of sheet metal ducting. Bend it and it makes a WA-WA sound. That is pretty much what a driveshaft does, but at a much higher frequency – higher than even the dreaded “critical speed” of 100 Hz.

Axle noise will occur from about 350 Hz all the way through 500 Hz, sometimes even higher than that. The energy comes from the teeth meshing at the pinion/ring gear interface. This energy is transmitted to the driveshaft (and suspension components) and makes them deflect in the same sense as a piece of sheet metal goes WA-WA. Aluminum is less stiff than steel and takes less energy to deflect it, so it is far more inclined to make your axle go WOOOOO as you drive down the road at 45-70 mph.

Assuming again a 3.73 axle ratio, which has 11 teeth on the pinion and 41 on the ring gear, the axle noise frequency is calculated as (at 45-70 mph):

815/60*3.73*11 or 557 Hz at 60 mph.

This means the WOOO you hear at 45 mph is about 418 Hz and the WEEEEEE you hear at 70 mph is way up there at 650 Hz. You can’t SEE the driveshaft is bending and breathing and twisting, but it is telling you that precisely that is occurring.

So, now armed with this information, you now understand the basics of your vehicle’s driveline.



All of this just to say that your driveshaft will vibrate and that damper ring helps to keep the noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) down.
Back to top
 
 

There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
  IP Logged
old_rider
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Backyard Bill
Productions

Posts: 3147
flordia panhandle
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #13 - 10/11/16 at 15:24:13
 
I am still having what I think is a harmonic vibration, not sure if it's the tires because they're newer or because that ring is off I didn't notice it before, but I've noticed it now and I am not sure if it's in my head or not. Smiley
Maybe I will have Walmart check the balances again.
Kinda feel it in my feet like on the bike when you get past 70 Shocked
Back to top
 
 

We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
  IP Logged
old_rider
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Backyard Bill
Productions

Posts: 3147
flordia panhandle
Gender: male
Re: Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind
Reply #14 - 10/11/16 at 15:43:20
 
Todd James who can put a new one back on? I can't find a parts store that even lists one. Every post I have seen says leave it off, and I don't want to replace my tranny in two years if the vibes cause an issue
Back to top
 
 

We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
09/29/24 at 12:18:57



General CategoryThe Cafe › Truck driveshaft issues...hope you don't mind


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.