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Can you really be a liberal? (Read 186 times)
LostArtist
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #30 - 10/04/16 at 20:08:00
 
raydawg wrote on 10/04/16 at 14:57:18:
Serowbot wrote on 10/04/16 at 09:27:50:
Liberals see government as a pooling of our resources for the benefit of us all...  
We want our money to be spent wisely, and to make America a better place...

Conservatives see government as the enemy... and revenues as theft...
The problem Conservatives have is electing people to do jobs that they despise, and a government that they hate...  


I would love to see some examples Bot, please.
I would think the list must be long, for you to declare such a blanket statement.
Thanks



to quote the great Saint Ronald Regan “Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

and it's been the republicans who use shutting down the government as a negotiating tactic (at least in recent memory, I'm sure the democrats have done it too)  

It's the conservatives that want to starve government by NEVER raising taxes for any reason every again

Republicans run on reducing the size of government, your medicare, your ss, your unemployment, your food stamps, etc...  


Democrats are constantly fighting to increase benefits, to make life in general better, a more educated populace, a healthier populace, a fed populace (yeah I know in some city's democrats want food for the poor to be inspected like food for the rest of us, and that has shut down some outreach programs, and that does suck)  Democrats want clean water, not pipelines, or lead in the water as in Flint, democrats want the EPA to actually have teeth, as opposed to allowing self regulated industries allow themselves to blow up in West, Texas, or allow them to leak benzeene above safe limits into the atmosphere for months at a time

and that's just off the top of my head for now, and I'm kind tired
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #31 - 10/05/16 at 03:53:30
 
LostArtist wrote on 10/04/16 at 20:08:00:
raydawg wrote on 10/04/16 at 14:57:18:
Serowbot wrote on 10/04/16 at 09:27:50:
Liberals see government as a pooling of our resources for the benefit of us all...  
We want our money to be spent wisely, and to make America a better place...

Conservatives see government as the enemy... and revenues as theft...
The problem Conservatives have is electing people to do jobs that they despise, and a government that they hate...  


I would love to see some examples Bot, please.
I would think the list must be long, for you to declare such a blanket statement.
Thanks



to quote the great Saint Ronald Regan “Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

and it's been the republicans who use shutting down the government as a negotiating tactic (at least in recent memory, I'm sure the democrats have done it too)  

It's the conservatives that want to starve government by NEVER raising taxes for any reason every again

Republicans run on reducing the size of government, your medicare, your ss, your unemployment, your food stamps, etc...  


Democrats are constantly fighting to increase benefits, to make life in general better, a more educated populace, a healthier populace, a fed populace (yeah I know in some city's democrats want food for the poor to be inspected like food for the rest of us, and that has shut down some outreach programs, and that does suck)  Democrats want clean water, not pipelines, or lead in the water as in Flint, democrats want the EPA to actually have teeth, as opposed to allowing self regulated industries allow themselves to blow up in West, Texas, or allow them to leak benzeene above safe limits into the atmosphere for months at a time

and that's just off the top of my head for now, and I'm kind tired


Those are talking points, can you give me examples.
When they were applied, why, and how.
What were the implications, what were the results.

I have seen where the republicans have offered less, when doing the budget, but still spending more, and the democrats call it a cut.
So, if you would like to give examples, as what I listed, that would help.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #32 - 10/05/16 at 05:58:50
 
The default liberal position is that income primarily belongs to the state first and to the citizen who earned it second.

Conservative ideology would say income earned belongs to the person who earned it first,  and the state second.

liberal ideology desires equal outcomes, conservative ideology desires equal opportunity.

liberal ideology says certain lives matter more than others. Conservative ideology says all lives matter equally.

liberal ideology tends to recognize mankind as the ultimate authority. Conservative ideology tends to recognize the role of a creator.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #33 - 10/05/16 at 06:00:51
 
MnSpring wrote on 10/04/16 at 15:38:35:
[color=#0000ff]
Just like Playing  Slots/Craps/Roulette, (Pure Chance)
vs., Playing Poker or Black Jack.


Regardless of the game, the house always wins.


--Steve
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #34 - 10/05/16 at 07:10:01
 
WebsterMark wrote on 10/05/16 at 05:58:50:
The default liberal position is that income primarily belongs to the state first and to the citizen who earned it second.

Conservative ideology would say income earned belongs to the person who earned it first,  and the state second.

liberal ideology desires equal outcomes, conservative ideology desires equal opportunity.

liberal ideology says certain lives matter more than others. Conservative ideology says all lives matter equally.

liberal ideology tends to recognize mankind as the ultimate authority. Conservative ideology tends to recognize the role of a creator.


I like your list, can you show me legislation implemented, and results, where they clashed?
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #35 - 10/05/16 at 07:40:38
 
If he doesn't, does that mean what he said is wrong?
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #36 - 10/05/16 at 08:23:08
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 10/05/16 at 07:40:38:
If he doesn't, does that mean what he said is wrong?


Relax huggyboy, I am a learning here, and I ain't to proud to ask for help  Kiss
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #37 - 10/05/16 at 13:20:07
 
Read my St. Louis Post-Dispatch for one week... hell, one day, and you'll get your answer.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #38 - 10/05/16 at 13:50:10
 
raydawg wrote on 10/05/16 at 07:10:01:
I like your list, can you show me legislation implemented, and results, where they clashed?


1)Each party's tax policy is an easy one for income, liberals want more of everyone's money.
2)Liberal school policy, labor laws covers equal outcome vs equal opportunity.
3)Abortion laws cover certain lives matter more than others.
4) The hostility of liberal opposition to religious institutions refusing to pay for abortions takes care of the last.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #39 - 10/05/16 at 15:06:58
 
WebsterMark wrote on 10/05/16 at 13:50:10:
raydawg wrote on 10/05/16 at 07:10:01:
I like your list, can you show me legislation implemented, and results, where they clashed?


1)Each party's tax policy is an easy one for income, liberals want more of everyone's money.
2)Liberal school policy, labor laws covers equal outcome vs equal opportunity.
3)Abortion laws cover certain lives matter more than others.
4) The hostility of liberal opposition to religious institutions refusing to pay for abortions takes care of the last.


Thanks Web, but again, these are more talking points when offered like this.
I was hoping one of you smart guys could pull a example where a piece of legislation was argued, and passed. What was the outcome of it after it became law.
Did it deliver on its promise of the sponsor, or did the oppositions argument come to pass?

Obamacare being an example.
It was passed against the will of the people, and the people are looking to be right, as all the promises are not bearing out.

Make sense?
Thanks.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #40 - 10/05/16 at 15:26:41
 
Legislation proposed
People say
No, that sux
Passes
People are proven right
Never gets repealed.

Show a time when that didn't happen.

What has D.C.done that the People wanted?
What has D.C.done that the People didn't want?
How did it work out?
There are Reasons why the people don't trust D.C.
The media, too.


Rockefeller THANKED the media for Not telling what they heard at the Bilderberg meetings.

But, you can pretend that is meaningless.
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #41 - 10/05/16 at 15:51:22
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 10/05/16 at 15:26:41:
Legislation proposed
People say
No, that sux
Passes
People are proven right
Never gets repealed.

Show a time when that didn't happen.

What has D.C.done that the People wanted?
What has D.C.done that the People didn't want?
How did it work out?
There are Reasons why the people don't trust D.C.
The media, too.


Rockefeller THANKED the media for Not telling what they heard at the Bilderberg meetings.

But, you can pretend that is meaningless.


Nothing is meaningless, if someone finds value in it....
So please, rise above Lost Artist's, M.O.

And too Jog, things evolve, times change, I am not assigning a value to that, just trying to point out, what was, does not assure, it is now....
Too many variables to be able to say with certainty the outcome, the further away its removed, it becomes a paradox
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #42 - 10/05/16 at 17:25:19
 
Undecidedraydawg wrote on 10/05/16 at 03:53:30:
LostArtist wrote on 10/04/16 at 20:08:00:
raydawg wrote on 10/04/16 at 14:57:18:
Serowbot wrote on 10/04/16 at 09:27:50:
Liberals see government as a pooling of our resources for the benefit of us all...  
We want our money to be spent wisely, and to make America a better place...

Conservatives see government as the enemy... and revenues as theft...
The problem Conservatives have is electing people to do jobs that they despise, and a government that they hate...  


I would love to see some examples Bot, please.
I would think the list must be long, for you to declare such a blanket statement.
Thanks



to quote the great Saint Ronald Regan “Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

and it's been the republicans who use shutting down the government as a negotiating tactic (at least in recent memory, I'm sure the democrats have done it too)  

It's the conservatives that want to starve government by NEVER raising taxes for any reason every again

Republicans run on reducing the size of government, your medicare, your ss, your unemployment, your food stamps, etc...  


Democrats are constantly fighting to increase benefits, to make life in general better, a more educated populace, a healthier populace, a fed populace (yeah I know in some city's democrats want food for the poor to be inspected like food for the rest of us, and that has shut down some outreach programs, and that does suck)  Democrats want clean water, not pipelines, or lead in the water as in Flint, democrats want the EPA to actually have teeth, as opposed to allowing self regulated industries allow themselves to blow up in West, Texas, or allow them to leak benzeene above safe limits into the atmosphere for months at a time

and that's just off the top of my head for now, and I'm kind tired


Those are talking points, can you give me examples.
When they were applied, why, and how.
What were the implications, what were the results.

I have seen where the republicans have offered less, when doing the budget, but still spending more, and the democrats call it a cut.
So, if you would like to give examples, as what I listed, that would help.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


dear lord man, would it kill you to do a bit of research yourself???

and I did offer EXAMPLES, Reagan, the patron saint of conservatism, saying that "... government is the problem."  is an example of "Conservatives see government as the enemy..."

Starving the beast is a conservative strategy :"Starving the beast" is a political strategy employed by American conservatives in order to limit government spending[1][2][3] by cutting taxes in order to deprive the government of revenue in a deliberate effort to force the federal government to reduce spending."  that's from the Wiki herehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

and do I really need to list the many, many, many conservative republicans running on the idea of "Shrinking" the government??   you surely are not that ignorant to their OVERT campaigning and the constant drum beat from the conservative media (fox news and talk radio)

They want to cut back regulations, regulations like those in Flint where the REPUBLICAN government forced them to change water sources and ignored the warning of lead contamination by the EPA https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/03/flint-water-crisis-congress-m... "The Environmental Protection Agency warned of an unfolding toxic water crisis in Flint but was “met with resistance” by Michigan authorities, a fiery congressional hearing into the city’s public health disaster has heard."  and these were not the democrats elected, these were the REPUBLICAN appointed officials by the State of Michigan.  so that's an example for ya. the results in Flint are THOUSANDS of poisoned children.

another example is that in the Republican controlled state of Texas, the state has given the companies, like Marathon oil, and BP and etc..  the authority to regulate themselves for air emissions read here for more info: Industry Self-Regulation and Voluntary Environmental Compliance https://books.google.com/books?id=QJDMBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=texas+self+r... the results in Texas are disasters like the explosion in West, Texas, and benzene exposure as exampled here: http://www.businessinsider.com/benzene-emissions-lawsuit-bp-2010-8 "We represent more than 6000 individuals who were exposed to benzene. Bp averages between 200 to 400 releases yearly, but this one takes the cake. Enough is enough. If the regulatory authorities can't make bp conform to the emission laws, maybe a jury can."   although I believe that case was later deemed much ado about nothing in the courts at least.  still an example of conservatives allowing businesses to work in their own self interest, public be darned.

republicans and conservatives time and time again, fight back to reverse, or just ignore laws that WE THE PEOPLE voted for. they are working against Government, and sometimes that's good, but sometimes, it leads to disasters, I don't think the republicans and conservatives really care.

republicans also want to privatize SS. running against a governmental guaranteed program, gamble it all man!!  https://theintercept.com/liveblogs/vpdebate/mike-pence-and-donald-trump-have-...


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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #43 - 10/05/16 at 18:14:43
 
LostArtist wrote on 10/04/16 at 20:08:00:
" ... Democrats are constantly fighting to increase benefits, to make life in general better, a more educated populace, a healthier populace, a fed populace (yeah I know in some city's democrats want food for the poor to be inspected like food for the rest of us, and that has shut down some outreach programs, and that does suck)  Democrats want clean water, not pipelines, or lead in the water as in Flint, democrats want the EPA to actually have teeth, as opposed to allowing self regulated industries allow themselves to blow up in West, Texas, or allow them to leak benzeene above safe limits into the atmosphere for months at a time ..."


increase benefits,  

For who?  People that have  NEVER paid in?
Like Illegal Immigrants, and ’so called’ Refugees?
Or large blocks of, ‘poor’ people, so when they get the benefit, they VOTE, for the party that gave them the, ‘benefit’, (which they NEVER worked for)?
Or, REDUCE, Benefits, for the people, that  FOUGHT AND DIED, so you have the,  FREEDOM, to post here?

a more educated populace,

Would examples be, the 20 +/- year old, who worked for the Fed Government, did NOT know what a GPS is.
Would that be a Sophomore in Collage, who had NO Idea their us a USA, Constitution, Bill of rights,  or Amendments?
Would that be H.S. students, still Texting and Driving?
Would that be, H.S. Students, working for a fast food place, that do NOT, know how to make change?
Would that be a collage, where only  ONE, POV is  Allowed ?

a healthier populace,

Is that like, the,  FORCED,  H.C. Which the Premiums, have gone  UP, and UP, and UP.
So the people that don’t pay, get it  FREE?
And the,  FREE,  (WE PAY),  HC for the Politicians?
(Which is Better, than what,  WE, have to  PAY  for?)


a fed populace (yeah I know in some city's democrats want food for the poor to be inspected like food for the rest of us, and that has shut down some outreach programs, and that does suck)


OH, and, (Because of a  Democrat), a food shelf, cannot take something, which, the REST of us use  EVERY day !!!!
And, 90% Drive in, and take,  SEVERAL, carts out, and load it into,  “Much  Newer”, Caddice’s, Lincoln’s, Suburban’s, Lexi’s, Big  New,  (import)  SUV’s, (Even saw 2  Jaguars),   Only 10%, were Beat up, Older, cars.  
(Spent a  DAY,   Watching.  (A Shared Driveway, to a Auction I was checking out for)

Democrats want clean water, not pipelines,

And,  ‘Clean’ water, can  NOT, flow through a  Pipe ?????

or lead in the water as in Flint,

That was   NOT,   Political.   BUT,  as YOU   Mention that.   Can you, ‘wonder’,  How, that happened, for SO  Long, under the, ‘wonderful’, democratic, control ?????

democrats want the EPA to actually have teeth,

And would that be, where the EPA, can  KILL,  a  River,   Filling it  FULL, of  Very  Toxic wast.  Killing, the Wildlife, and greatly inconveniencing the humans that used that water, for the next  30 YEARS +.   And   NOTHING  is DONE  !!!!
But yet, when a farmer, Enlarges a little creek which ran through his property, making a pond, which only,  BENEFITED, wild life & Domestic stock, YOUR,  EPA,   Fined him Millions, and  Demanded he put it back ???

But,  expect that, (Berni Sanders),  talk.
  From someone who says, ALL the Money, ALL, the Workers, and Employers, were, FORCED, to pay into, are now,
  HIS  !@



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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Can you really be a liberal?
Reply #44 - 10/05/16 at 18:15:36
 
Thanks for the attempt, but again, you is using opinion of the guardian website as fact, its not, its supposition.

I am asking for direct legislation passed, by either side, that the opposition/losing party, was correct, in their arguments.

Lets try the housing crisis, what led up to that, and why.
A lot of folks.....WAY SMARTER THAN ME, and I am not talking about my wife's two minnie weenies, either  Embarrassed

Have said it was the cause and effect that brought us to the recession.

Again, thanks for the effort, but lets stick to facts, like the congressional record, etc. not a website.
For every left bend, a right bend exist, and neither will bend the other way, that bro is called stalemate, and really, useless, at getting to the facts.
When an administration (any administration) has to "spin" the facts, we have already left exited, true facts....

This might help, I dunno  Undecided

supposition

[suhp-uh-zish-uh n]

Spell  Syllables

Examples Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
the act of supposing.
2.
something that is supposed; assumption; hypothesis.
Origin of supposition Expand
late Middle English Latin
1400-14501400-50; late Middle English < Latin suppositiōn- (stem of suppositiō) substitution (E meaning by association with suppose ), equivalent to supposit (us) (past participle of suppōnere to substitute) + -iōn- -ion. See sup-, position

Related forms Expand
suppositional, adjective
suppositionally, adverb
nonsuppositional, adjective
nonsuppositionally, adverb
unsuppositional, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2016.
Cite This Source

Examples from the Web for supposition Expand
Contemporary Examples

Contamination must be proven with certainty not supposition.

Italian Court Explains Why It Overturned Amanda Knox’s Acquittal
Historical Examples

It was only the supposition of Furness, and it is my conviction that they have not.

The Poacher
Frederick Marryat

He seemed to yield to the justice of this supposition in spite of himself.

A Christmas Carol
Charles Dickens

On any other supposition to the general reader it is unintelligible.

Essays on Life, Art and Science
Samuel Butler

Her strange question seemed to be explained by this supposition.

A Lieutenant at Eighteen
Oliver Optic

It will not do, I suppose, to admit such a supposition ; yet the marvels which come constantly before me may almost justify it.

Adrift in the Arctic Ice Pack
Elisha Kent Kane

"It is pleasant to have your supposition confirmed," Deck ventured to remark.

A Lieutenant at Eighteen
Oliver Optic

The supposition that she had died of spontaneous combustion was also entertained by a good many.

Historic Oddities
Sabine Baring-Gould

On the supposition that the slaves of Besançon were aboard, my heart felt relieved.

The Quadroon
Mayne Reid

It is based upon the supposition that your allegations would be supported by evidence.

The Grafters
Francis Lynde

British Dictionary definitions for supposition Expand
supposition
/ˌsʌpəˈzɪʃən/
noun
1.
the act of supposing
2.
a fact, theory, etc, that is supposed
Derived Forms
suppositional, adjective
suppositionally, adverb
suppositionless, adjective
Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition
© William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2012

Cite This Source
Word Origin and History for supposition Expand
n.
early 15c., a term in logic, from Late Latin suppositionem (nominative suppositio) "assumption, hypothesis," noun of action from past participle stem of supponere (see suppose ); influenced by Greek hypothesis.
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