SuzukiSavage.com - Observations on a high mileage engine tear down

youzguyz

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Observations on a high mileage engine tear down
09/29/16 at 11:01:42

The time has come, the walrus said, to wrench on many things...

At 155,523 miles, Thumper has been taken out of service for some semi-major work.
Reasons for work.
1. Using too much oil (compression isn't horrible though. Suspect valve seals)
2. Clutch slipping in 5th gear. Enough to aggravate.

To set the stage.
Mobil 1 was used until 60,000 miles. Rotella T6 since then.
Things that were done prior to this tear down that are engine related.
Verslavy put in and put on 2nd hole (miles unknown).
Cam chain replaced with Nitrided at 81,000
Verslavy put on 2nd hole at 105,000
Started chasing left side oil leak
Starter o-ring, 135,000
main oil seal and o-ring 139,000
alt cover gasket 142,000
Stator shorted 153,000

Boys and Girls .. THAT IS ALL THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THE ENGINE to this point.
Other things have gone out. (Belt, carb slider x 2, carb float seat o-ring, front wheel bearing, rear pulley bearing, mufflers, etc)
Other things have broken from abuse (rear fender x 3, spokes, muffler bracket x 2, rear shock, etc)

So, why this post? So I can tell you what I am seeing as I tear this engine down.
I ain't near as eloquent as other posters, so just deal with that.

Clutch arm is right at the lower mark, indicating some wear is likely.
Clutch cover gasket. Hard as a ROCK. Cleanup is going to be a pain.

Cam chain tensioner.
Only 10mm out from the barrel??? I was truly expecting that thing to be at the limit of the Verslavy.

Cam. Looks good to me (should I take pictures?)
Cam journals. Look good too.
A little wear on the rocker arms.

More later Cheesy

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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
2000 - Green (Mad Hamish)
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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Gary_in_NJ Serious Thumper Offline LS650 Cafe Racer Posts: 2625 Amongst the Twisty Roads	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #1 - 09/29/16 at 12:55:07 youzguyz wrote on 09/29/16 at 11:01:42: The time has come, the walrus said, to wrench on many things... At 155,523 miles I can't even imagine this type of mileage on an air-cooled engine. Yes, photos.
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Kris01 Serious Thumper Offline Eat, sleep, RIDE! Posts: 3767 Tennessee Gender:	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #2 - 09/29/16 at 17:24:46 That's impressive mileage!
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Dave

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #3 - 09/30/16 at 05:31:59

It is a good indicator that cam/rocker wear doesn't have to occur when you use a proper oil. I bought a bike with 3,800 miles on it and a the cam and rockers were badly worn - most likely from using the wrong oil and letting the bike idle on the sidestand.

Your 2002 bike doesn't even have the rockers with hardened inserts that are in the 2005 and later bikes.

It is a tough call on what should be renewed in this engine. The crank and counterbalance shaft bearings have a lot of miles on them - but could be fine. And should the case be split to renew the 14 year old sealant? I am pretty certain I would replace all the gaskets and rubber seals.

And while you have it apart - I am starting to believe that if you want a bike that is oil tight, it is necessary to put some sealant on the copper washers under the cylinder studs....several bikes have leaked oil from these washers/nuts, as well as the short studs under the intake/exhaust ports.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #4 - 09/30/16 at 06:18:43 Flat bottom pan, lay clutch cover gasket side down in something to soften the gasket, but not eat your clear coat.
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youzguyz

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #5 - 09/30/16 at 13:00:43

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/30/16 at 06:18:43:

Flat bottom pan, lay clutch cover gasket side down in something to soften the gasket, but not eat your clear coat.

What goes in the pan? "something" doesn't tell me much.
And once I find the "something" that does the trick on the cover, I can soak that into some paper towels and put it on the engine case where the clutch cover mates to loosen that up.

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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
2000 - Green (Mad Hamish)
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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youzguyz

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #6 - 09/30/16 at 16:16:49

Photos are at this link:
http://imgur.com/a/RhTYO
Sorry about the blue tinge. LED lighting

General comments.
Piston top has a large patch of carbon in the middle. Looks OK besides that.
Cylinder wall is perfect. No gouges, no streaks. Anything weird you see in the pictures is from lighting.

Valves.
I have no idea why that one valve is white and the others are black.

Cam, journals, rockers, as described above

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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
2000 - Green (Mad Hamish)
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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youzguyz

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #7 - 09/30/16 at 16:20:59

Dave wrote on 09/30/16 at 05:31:59:

It is a good indicator that cam/rocker wear doesn't have to occur when you use a proper oil. I bought a bike with 3,800 miles on it and a the cam and rockers were badly worn - most likely from using the wrong oil and letting the bike idle on the sidestand.

Your 2002 bike doesn't even have the rockers with hardened inserts that are in the 2005 and later bikes.

It is a tough call on what should be renewed in this engine. The crank and counterbalance shaft bearings have a lot of miles on them - but could be fine. And should the case be split to renew the 14 year old sealant? I am pretty certain I would replace all the gaskets and rubber seals.

And while you have it apart - I am starting to believe that if you want a bike that is oil tight, it is necessary to put some sealant on the copper washers under the cylinder studs....several bikes have leaked oil from these washers/nuts, as well as the short studs under the intake/exhaust ports.

I will probably pull the cylinder off so I can replace the rings. At that point, I should be able to at least feel for any play in the crankshaft and related parts. If it seems to be OK, I won't split the case. If I do need to split the case, then any bearings, etc, that I can get to will be replaced.

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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
2000 - Green (Mad Hamish)
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #8 - 09/30/16 at 17:08:52 Wild guess on the exhaust valve ,it's in the most direct path to the header ,and while the carbon on the other valves are cooked medium this one sees hotter gas temps and maybe more flow and gets welldone.
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Kris01 Serious Thumper Offline Eat, sleep, RIDE! Posts: 3767 Tennessee Gender:	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #9 - 09/30/16 at 18:39:21 It does seem that the one valve is running a little hotter than the other three. Maybe valve lash is tighter?
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #10 - 09/30/16 at 19:39:38 I'm fond of diesel. I Doubt it would hurt the clear coat.
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Dave

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #11 - 10/01/16 at 03:33:27

I know why the one exhaust valve is white....I don't know why the other one is dark? Both of the exhaust valves are normally white on this bike.

I don't think valve clearance would have made much of a difference....a few thousandths of difference between valves is going to have very little effect on how long the valve is on the seat or being lifted.

The rest of the parts look surprisingly good. I suppose carbon build up is normal on an engine with this kind of mileage - and the type of fuel you use can have a big effect on this, as the fuels sold by Chevron,Shell,BP, etc. have more cleaning additives than the bargain brand fuels.

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« Last Edit: 10/01/16 at 04:39:07 by Dave »

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smokin_blue

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #12 - 10/01/16 at 05:25:22

My guess would be the white valve had normal valve clearances so it was lifting and heating normally from the exhaust gasses flowing past it. The carboned up valved if anything I would guess had high clearances to the point it didn't lift so it never heated, just like the intake valves. If it stays on it's seat during the exhaust pulse it will stay much cooler for two reasons. One the host gasses are never flowing over the entire surface and two it spends all it's time on the valve seat which is it's main heat sink to transfer heat out of the valve. Bike would still run it would just be lacking some performance at high RPMs.

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justin_o_guy2

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What happened?

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Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Reply #13 - 10/01/16 at 07:54:11

155,500 miles
Just say every moment was sixty mph, ,5,000 rpm.
155,500 minutes x 5,000 rpm
That's 7, 775, 000 revolutions.
It never idled, never rolled through a parking lot fading the clutch, ,, just sixty mph at 5,000 rpm..
I don't know what the rpm is at sixty,
That's just a rough figure to appreciate what that one cylinder Did. Time in lower gears, rolling through city streets, revolutions per mile increase,
Little engine probably has ten million revolutions on it.

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Kris01 Serious Thumper Offline Eat, sleep, RIDE! Posts: 3767 Tennessee Gender:	Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow Reply #14 - 10/01/16 at 09:27:46 justin_o_guy2 wrote on 10/01/16 at 07:54:11: I don't know what the rpm is at sixty... A little over 4000.
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