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Based on a lie? (Read 65 times)
raydawg
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Based on a lie?
09/28/16 at 04:48:09
 
We herald diversity....
It is the high water mark of a moral, just, and civilized society, yes?

We can look at history and see civilizations downfall when it, diversity, was not embraced.

This brings me to my question.

Why is it that presently we don't embrace political diversity?

Hillary once stated opposition to an administration is patriotic, yet, if you challenge the current one, depending on who you are, you can be challenged and labeled, a racist.

Why is it this freedom seems to extend only one way?

Freedom of speach and expression is just that, unbridled, uncensored, and often, ugly and repugnant.....
But once I restrict that freedom, have I not also trampled on diversity?

The right often points out the failings of morality re: the left.
The left fires back example of the rights hyprocity, and tolerance of diversity is never exampled by either....

You think when you extend this mindset into social equations too, that perhaps this is why we are so torn apart?

I hope I can get some good feedback, replies....
That might be a start  Grin
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #1 - 09/28/16 at 05:06:47
 

We can look at history and see civilizations downfall when it, diversity, was not embraced.
Ohh, can we now? You might give
Rise and fall of the Roman empire
Another look.
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #2 - 09/28/16 at 05:13:53
 
A little long, but very informative.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh7rdCYCQ_U

Best regards,
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LostArtist
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #3 - 09/28/16 at 09:08:50
 
here's the eight top reasons, according to the History Channel for what that's worth:

In the late fourth century, the Western Roman Empire crumbled after a nearly 500-year run as the world’s greatest superpower. Historians have blamed the collapse on hundreds of different factors ranging from military failures and crippling taxation to natural disasters and even climate change. Still others argue that the Roman Empire didn’t really fall in 476 A.D., since its eastern half continued for another thousand years in the form of the Byzantine Empire. While just how—and when—the Empire fell remains a subject of ongoing debate, certain theories have emerged as the most popular explanations for Western Rome’s decline and disintegration. Read on to discover eight reasons why one of history’s most legendary empires finally came crashing down.

Invasions by Barbarian tribes

The most straightforward theory for Western Rome’s collapse pins the fall on a string of military losses sustained against outside forces. Rome had tangled with Germanic tribes for centuries, but by the 300s “barbarian” groups like the Goths had encroached beyond the Empire’s borders. The Romans weathered a Germanic uprising in the late fourth century, but in 410 the Visigoth King Alaric successfully sacked the city of Rome. The Empire spent the next several decades under constant threat before “the Eternal City” was raided again in 455, this time by the Vandals. Finally, in 476, the Germanic leader Odoacer staged a revolt and deposed the Emperor Romulus Augustulus. From then on, no Roman emperor would ever again rule from a post in Italy, leading many to cite 476 as the year the Western Empire suffered its deathblow.

Economic troubles and overreliance on slave labor

Even as Rome was under attack from outside forces, it was also crumbling from within thanks to a severe financial crisis. Constant wars and overspending had significantly lightened imperial coffers, and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor. In the hope of avoiding the taxman, many members of the wealthy classes had even fled to the countryside and set up independent fiefdoms. At the same time, the empire was rocked by a labor deficit. Rome’s economy depended on slaves to till its fields and work as craftsmen, and its military might had traditionally provided a fresh influx of conquered peoples to put to work. But when expansion ground to a halt in the second century, Rome’s supply of slaves and other war treasures began to dry up. A further blow came in the fifth century, when the Vandals claimed North Africa and began disrupting the empire’s trade by prowling the Mediterranean as pirates. With its economy faltering and its commercial and agricultural production in decline, the Empire began to lose its grip on Europe.

The rise of the Eastern Empire

The fate of Western Rome was partially sealed in the late third century, when the Emperor Diocletian divided the Empire into two halves—the Western Empire seated in the city of Milan, and the Eastern Empire in Byzantium, later known as Constantinople. The division made the empire more easily governable in the short term, but over time the two halves drifted apart. East and West failed to adequately work together to combat outside threats, and the two often squabbled over resources and military aid. As the gulf widened, the largely Greek-speaking Eastern Empire grew in wealth while the Latin-speaking West descended into economic crisis. Most importantly, the strength of the Eastern Empire served to divert Barbarian invasions to the West. Emperors like Constantine ensured that the city of Constantinople was fortified and well guarded, but Italy and the city of Rome—which only had symbolic value for many in the East—were left vulnerable. The Western political structure would finally disintegrate in the fifth century, but the Eastern Empire endured in some form for another thousand years before being overwhelmed by the Ottoman Empire in the 1400s.

Overexpansion and military overspending

At its height, the Roman Empire stretched from the Atlantic Ocean all the way to the Euphrates River in the Middle East, but its grandeur may have also been its downfall. With such a vast territory to govern, the empire faced an administrative and logistical nightmare. Even with their excellent road systems, the Romans were unable to communicate quickly or effectively enough to manage their holdings. Rome struggled to marshal enough troops and resources to defend its frontiers from local rebellions and outside attacks, and by the second century the Emperor Hadrian was forced to build his famous wall in Britain just to keep the enemy at bay. As more and more funds were funneled into the military upkeep of the empire, technological advancement slowed and Rome’s civil infrastructure fell into disrepair.

Government corruption and political instability

If Rome’s sheer size made it difficult to govern, ineffective and inconsistent leadership only served to magnify the problem. Being the Roman emperor had always been a particularly dangerous job, but during the tumultuous second and third centuries it nearly became a death sentence. Civil war thrust the empire into chaos, and more than 20 men took the throne in the span of only 75 years, usually after the murder of their predecessor. The Praetorian Guard—the emperor’s personal bodyguards—assassinated and installed new sovereigns at will, and once even auctioned the spot off to the highest bidder. The political rot also extended to the Roman Senate, which failed to temper the excesses of the emperors due to its own widespread corruption and incompetence. As the situation worsened, civic pride waned and many Roman citizens lost trust in their leadership.

The arrival of the Huns and the migration of the Barbarian tribes

The Barbarian attacks on Rome partially stemmed from a mass migration caused by the Huns’ invasion of Europe in the late fourth century. When these Eurasian warriors rampaged through northern Europe, they drove many Germanic tribes to the borders of the Roman Empire. The Romans grudgingly allowed members of the Visigoth tribe to cross south of the Danube and into the safety of Roman territory, but they treated them with extreme cruelty. According to the historian Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman officials even forced the starving Goths to trade their children into slavery in exchange for dog meat. In brutalizing the Goths, the Romans created a dangerous enemy within their own borders. When the oppression became too much to bear, the Goths rose up in revolt and eventually routed a Roman army and killed the Eastern Emperor Valens during the Battle of Adrianople in A.D. 378. The shocked Romans negotiated a flimsy peace with the barbarians, but the truce unraveled in 410, when the Goth King Alaric moved west and sacked Rome. With the Western Empire weakened, Germanic tribes like the Vandals and the Saxons were able to surge across its borders and occupy Britain, Spain and North Africa.

Christianity and the loss of traditional values

The decline of Rome dovetailed with the spread of Christianity, and some have argued that the rise of a new faith helped contribute to the empire’s fall. The Edict of Milan legalized Christianity in 313, and it later became the state religion in 380. These decrees ended centuries of persecution, but they may have also eroded the traditional Roman values system. Christianity displaced the polytheistic Roman religion, which viewed the emperor as having a divine status, and also shifted focus away from the glory of the state and onto a sole deity. Meanwhile, popes and other church leaders took an increased role in political affairs, further complicating governance. The 18th-century historian Edward Gibbon was the most famous proponent of this theory, but his take has since been widely criticized. While the spread of Christianity may have played a small role in curbing Roman civic virtue, most scholars now argue that its influence paled in comparison to military, economic and administrative factors.

Weakening of the Roman legions

For most of its history, Rome’s military was the envy of the ancient world. But during the decline, the makeup of the once mighty legions began to change. Unable to recruit enough soldiers from the Roman citizenry, emperors like Diocletian and Constantine began hiring foreign mercenaries to prop up their armies. The ranks of the legions eventually swelled with Germanic Goths and other barbarians, so much so that Romans began using the Latin word “barbarus” in place of “soldier.” While these Germanic soldiers of fortune proved to be fierce warriors, they also had little or no loyalty to the empire, and their power-hungry officers often turned against their Roman employers. In fact, many of the barbarians who sacked the city of Rome and brought down the Western Empire had earned their military stripes while serving in the Roman legions.



--------


notice how many of those relate to today's conservative zeitgeist  (okay, I might be stretching that a bit...maybe)


Economic troubles and over-reliance on slave labor

economic inequality!!! hello!



Christianity and the loss of traditional values

today that's translated as Shariah and the loss of traditional values



Government corruption and political instability

Both parties are plenty corrupt, but only ONE is fighting to keep money out of politics (against Citizens United)


Overexpansion and military overspending

even mention cutting the military budget and conservatives and republicans kill you with "unpatriotic" and "unAmerican" labels and spin

and now we are in the Middle East... Still... and probably forever more, that's expansion.




Weakening of the Roman legions

Unable to recruit enough soldiers from the Roman citizenry, emperors like Diocletian and Constantine began hiring foreign mercenaries to prop up their armies. The ranks of the legions eventually swelled with Germanic Goths and other barbarians, so much so that Romans began using the Latin word “barbarus” in place of “soldier.”

today we privatize(you know, that's a republican buzzword) military action as much as possible, Blackwater security, etc...  there are quite a few examples but you can search for those on your own


guess we should be glad we aren't at actual WAR at our borders, but, give Trump time...
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #4 - 09/28/16 at 10:10:16
 
My question and declaration was not focused on one society.
I think you guys err it forecasting the weather, based on past weather, and expect accuracy, it's a guess based on theory...

Also, to not consider the very important fact on today's technologies, etc, in adavancing many of the elements that use to consume time, energy, resources, back in the ages is leaving out a very important component to comparing.

I refer back to my question, observation, sorta like a saying a car is a vehicle, it transport people to their destination.
So do boats.
But to call a car a boat based on that, then driving it into the water....
Well, guess what.

Again, history aside, can we expect diversity if we choose to deny one side?
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #5 - 09/28/16 at 10:54:43
 
LostArtist wrote on 09/28/16 at 09:08:50:
Overexpansion and military overspending

At its height, the Roman Empire stretched from the Atlantic Ocean all the way to the Euphrates River in the Middle East, but its grandeur may have also been its downfall. With such a vast territory to govern, the empire faced an administrative and logistical nightmare. Even with their excellent road systems, the Romans were unable to communicate quickly or effectively enough to manage their holdings. Rome struggled to marshal enough troops and resources to defend its frontiers from local rebellions and outside attacks, and by the second century the Emperor Hadrian was forced to build his famous wall in Britain just to keep the enemy at bay. As more and more funds were funneled into the military upkeep of the empire, technological advancement slowed and Rome’s civil infrastructure fell into disrepair.

Overexpansion and military overspending

even mention cutting the military budget and conservatives and republicans kill you with "unpatriotic" and "unAmerican" labels and spin

and now we are in the Middle East... Still... and probably forever more, that's expansion.



I would have to find fault with this analysis.
The roman army was the engineers and builders of the infrastructure.
When the troops weren't fighting, they were building.
So, if it was falling into disrepair, it's because of increased fighting or declining troop strength or both.
I believe Hadrian's wall was abandoned at some point in time due to troubles in rome and falling troop strength.
Increased spending maybe a misnomer due to the failing economics of rome, but instead maybe increased percentage of rome's budget.

The comparison to modern times is really a stretch as the military does not generally build the infrastructure.  Not that there are instances happening, it's exception, not the rule.

Modern "expansion" doesn't really equate to ancient expansion because it's voluntary.  There are not economic ties or acquisition of property involved.  while that may be debated, I mean to say we don't retrieve taxes or profit, but there may be some graft involve (ie blackwater).
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #6 - 09/29/16 at 04:39:41
 
Well...... I really didn't expect to get any true reflections, as folks are just too steep in the demogougery of political indoctrination.
It's always the other person, as the right can blame Lester for being too tough on Donald, the left, on Matt Lauer.....
Let's not reveal any weakness in our candidate, goodness no.....
We sure don't want them to have to lead or explain in detail, I'm sure any world opposition to the USA will extend that consideration too, er, not.

Sad you guys can't see our differences have been politicized for political gain, instead of trying to understand, finding repair and resolutions.

Stupid is, as stupid does, carry on.
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What happened?

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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #7 - 09/29/16 at 08:21:10
 
I have tried to understand what you want, I think I almost got it, with the car/vehichle/ boat,  thing, but some of your stuff is a bit cryptic.

What do you Want to get across? If it's
Without multiculturalism a society will fail.
Well, no,
And for all the intellectual huffing and puffing regarding the fall of the Roman empire, I didn't see one word on the fact that they had conquered so many places that they couldn't assimilate into their general society that things got chaotic. And THAT was what I was told was a major factor long before I became aware of American immigration issues.
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #8 - 09/29/16 at 09:18:44
 
verslagen1 wrote on 09/28/16 at 10:54:43:
Increased spending maybe a misnomer due to the failing economics of rome, but instead maybe increased percentage of rome's budget.


Got a chance to watch the fall of rome and yes, due to the devaluation of currency to the point of it being no value... the soldiers demanded to be paid in gold... which brings in a parallel in current events, to be paid in gold for oil.
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #9 - 09/29/16 at 09:26:38
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/29/16 at 08:21:10:
I have tried to understand what you want, I think I almost got it, with the car/vehichle/ boat,  thing, but some of your stuff is a bit cryptic.

What do you Want to get across? If it's
Without multiculturalism a society will fail.
Well, no,
And for all the intellectual huffing and puffing regarding the fall of the Roman empire, I didn't see one word on the fact that they had conquered so many places that they couldn't assimilate into their general society that things got chaotic. And THAT was what I was told was a major factor long before I became aware of American immigration issues.


Not trying to be cryptic, that would go against why I even post  Grin

Multiculturalism isn't a form of governing, but embracing diversity in a manner that allows knowledge to flow freely.
If it's forced, like say we must teach homosexual technique in grade school to allow the munchkins to understand anal sex  Grin ....
Then of course, that hurts, in more ways than one, if it's hands on learning  Shocked
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #10 - 09/29/16 at 09:37:17
 
raydawg wrote on 09/28/16 at 04:48:09:
We can look at history and see civilizations downfall when it, diversity, was not embraced.

Extreme diversity was not tolerated (see fall of rome)
same laws applied throughout the empire.
religious intolerance was not allowed.
to name 2 examples.
and language.

In the end, it was diversity that caused the final fall of rome.
each tribe sought to provide for it's own.
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #11 - 09/29/16 at 10:05:31
 
verslagen1 wrote on 09/29/16 at 09:37:17:
raydawg wrote on 09/28/16 at 04:48:09:
We can look at history and see civilizations downfall when it, diversity, was not embraced.

Extreme diversity was not tolerated (see fall of rome)
same laws applied throughout the empire.
religious intolerance was not allowed.
to name 2 examples.
and language.

In the end, it was diversity that caused the final fall of rome.
each tribe sought to provide for it's own.



The bridge held traffic for 50 years.
One day it collapsed in quite a catastrophic event.
Was it flawed?
Or did they not maintaine it and upgrade as better technologies became known?
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #12 - 09/29/16 at 10:19:11
 
raydawg wrote on 09/29/16 at 10:05:31:
The bridge held traffic for 50 years.
One day it collapsed in quite a catastrophic event.
Was it flawed?
Or did they not maintaine it and upgrade as better technologies became known?


That's vague question, to answer it requires 10,000 more.
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Re: Based on a lie?
Reply #13 - 09/29/16 at 10:58:09
 
verslagen1 wrote on 09/29/16 at 10:19:11:
raydawg wrote on 09/29/16 at 10:05:31:
The bridge held traffic for 50 years.
One day it collapsed in quite a catastrophic event.
Was it flawed?
Or did they not maintaine it and upgrade as better technologies became known?




That's vague question, to answer it requires 10,000 more.


Ah.....:
And how many lent their ears to Caesar?
How many held to their own ways based on.......???
Can you isolate the first domino to fall, or where the first little crack started in the dam?

Well, bet we can say absolutely, historically, based in summations and best guessed hearsay, is fact, sorta like global warming?

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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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