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My first ride.... and the clutch drags. (Read 371 times)
gizzo
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #30 - 09/03/16 at 18:07:15
 
Well, it was just a thought. Thinking about it, if the pump wasn't working at all, the shavings from the camshaft should still be up there, not polluting the oil. even so, the cam chopping out is my tip for the valve clearances opening up so quickly. Maybe some gasket material restricting the oil pickup, who knows? I'm sure you'll confess when you find the problem. we'd love to know.
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #31 - 09/03/16 at 19:04:19
 
Looks like I wasn't the first to get the idea of dumping oil into the top end... but too late for me. I didn't tear down the top end, but with so much handling of the engine, the top end could have been a little too dry. I turned it over a few times without spark to prime it. Maybe it wasn't enough. The battery was low, and Dad was there and talked like I should go ahead and crank it.





Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 11/05/09 at 04:47:32:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/rod1.JPG

I made my 1mm longer rod from 1/4 inch drill rod that I had on hand.  There is enough clearance in the clutch hole to readily accommodate the larger size.

======================

Note from the FUTURE again ....  The standard hardware drill rod material is too soft (wears too easily on the ends) and it cannot be hardened in a reliable fashion that will not get hot in use and turn blue and resoften on you.  

Standard drill rod will not work, period
.   Go get you some full hardened 6mm real parts from Suzuki, or if you are stubborn like me go get a quarter inch diameter piece of M-2 HHS lathe tool bit material and make your push rod out of something that WILL NOT wear out or heat soften under any circumstances.

======================

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/short_rod.JPG

This is the shorter rod installed, it moves the lever in the wrong direction removing all the adjustment travel and rendering the clutch "worn out".  Shorter is incorrect, the cutch rods must be made LONGER.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/long_rod.JPG

Here is the 1mm longer rod, suddenly the same 13,000 mile old clutch pack is "new" again with all of the adjustment travel available again.  Longer is the correct direction and 1mm step lengths are obviously the correct stepping distance.  And now the "which way does it go?" question is finally answered.


=============


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/bit_trick.JPG

Installation of a Slavy tip on the factory cam chain adjuster showing the drill bit butt method to hold the spring tension back while putting the shoulder bolt in place.  I used locktite on this fastener as I didn't want it coming loose due to vibration over time.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/paper_gasket.JPG

$0.88/5 hand cut paper gasket going in.  The stock Suzuki side cover gasket costs $17.00 plus shipping, so there is a thread on how to replace it with a hand cut paper gasket.  Read the notes at the start and end of the thread, use of the black silicone gasket maker over both sides of the paper gasket (covering the inside and outside edges thoroughly) is recommended after having some weepage troubles at the oil gallery area with the bare paper gasket.  You need to "rubberize" the gasket with gasket maker, let it harden, then install it with a thin wet wipe of gasket maker in the oil gallery area to provide a maximum durable oil pressure proof seal.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256595298

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Torque1.JPG

You need to torque your gasket covers to keep the force even and to hold it down to the appropriate levels.  I think most leaks in this area are from uneven/too much pressure crushing and pinching the gasket and warping the cover.  There is a $3.95 torque tool mentioned in the thread above, so having no little bitty torque wrench shouldn't be a show stopper to you.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/baggie_trick.JPG

While I was waiting through the pull downs on the cover, I also did the baggie trick to heavy gear oil lube my clutch cable.  I also pulled the drain plug on the engine to make sure I didn't have any solvent contamination in the sump from all the cleaning & spraying.
(I did, a half cup of thin runny oily stuff came out on the floor)

Plan to change your oil after the first half hour of run time after a major rebuild as you have used solvents and there are tiny bits of gasket trash and some assembly lubes that will be contaminating that oil.  Expect some clutch slippage if you sprayed solvents anywhere near the clutch pack (you changed the oil viscosity inside the clutch) which will heal itself in the first day or so of riding

=====================

Time to put the oil in place.  I am using Rotella T dino white jug oil for the first few oil changes as they are very quickly done to get all contaminants out of the engine.

How you put the oil into the engine after a top end teardown is important.  You put it in through the valve covers, not the fill screw cap hole.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/front9.JPG

Put a half quart in VERY QUICKLY into the front cover.  Goal is to flood the area and raise the oil level right up to the bottom lip of the cover.  This floods the valve springs, valve stem and stem seal with oil.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/back6.JPG

Put all the rest of the oil in the back cover, once again pouring it VERY QUICKLY to raise the oil level right up to the lower lip of the recess.  This floods the valve springs, valve stem and stem seal with oil AND IT FILLS UP THE CAM LOBE BATHTUB AREA.

You will use more than 2 quarts of oil.  Go high in the sight glass as you have lots of galleries and oil passages to fill up once you crank the engine over.

STOP AND VERIFY THERE ARE NO GRITS OF SAND ANYWHERE AROUND THE HEAD RECESS AREAS!!  THIS INCLUDES THE HIDY HOLE BEHIND THE SPARK PLUG!!  You are getting ready to huff and puff out the park plug hole and you don't want to blow around and then suck up any sand grits down inside your cylinder !!!

Note:  put the spark plug into the rubber boot and ground it against a metal surface and then spray a little WD40 into your spark plug hole to top end lubricate your cylinder walls, rings and piston skirt.  Since stuff likes to move, try lightly restraining your plug against the steel jacket of the compression release with a clamp or a set of vice grips lightly applied (compression release is a good ground, very convenient to be able to see the spark, etc.)

You carefully maintain a normal spark plug ground condition to keep from stressing your ignition electronics -- this is important because if you kill an ignitor (black box) it costs triple digit money to get a new one.

Then crank your engine over with the starter for several 5-6 second bursts.  Give it 10 minutes between bursts for your starter motor to cool back down a bit then do it again.   The oil level in the sight glass should drop down about a quarter of a glass.  This "missing volume" will go to fill your oil galleries back up and get the oil flow reestablished back up to the head without stressing any dry parts like actually starting the engine would do.

It also gives you a chance to spot any cover oil leaks before you finish putting the bike back together -- saves time in case of a repair need.


=============


Crank up report:

Started right up, idled just fine.  A little extra noise from the top end (Web Cam wants an extra thou of valve clearance on their hot cam set up).  Going at it easy right now so there is no overall performance report to give quite yet.  

Old bottom end torque is still there, but it is not the same, there is a mid range surge towards the top end that was not there before.  Where you went flat before, you now have a slight second stage "pickup".  

Clutch pack hasn't settled in from all the fiddling I did, plus all the solvents and other assembly lubes floating around in the oil -- I need to do an oil change and see if I can get the clutch calmed down some.

There were no oil leaks at head or side cover -- all is good on that front.



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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #32 - 09/03/16 at 19:13:07
 
Which usually goes first, rockers, or cam? Both? I reckon cams are case hardened and are unusable once worn past their hard skin. What about the rockers? Can they take a beating and keep on ticking?

Do ya think I can just take a look and see what's torn up and maybe put it back and ride it? Or will it continue to wear down?

I'll have to inspect the situation in order to really know, but it wouldn't hurt to get some ideas floating around.
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #33 - 09/03/16 at 19:20:05
 
A quick glance at this thread is not very encouraging. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1268653293


Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 03/20/10 at 02:13:42:
Address is sent, now I need to go ahead and get the welding rod on the way ....

I would think our tappets are a case hardened job as it seems when you go through the case wear is pretty drastic past that point.

Some of these rods are relatively heat proof materials and the "case" will be pretty thick, so that shouldn't happen again.

Might eat the cam lobes off instead -- but Lancer can recover that with a hotter cam profile so that might not be a totally bad thing as your money gets you something better.




Dad keeps telling me I should trade it. Roll Eyes Undecided
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #34 - 09/03/16 at 19:34:12
 
Get something that has a warranty.
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #35 - 09/03/16 at 20:59:48
 
Another thing... When I first cranked it, it was on the side stand. It took a few seconds to realize and pick it up. I wonder...
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What to do?
Reply #36 - 09/05/16 at 08:19:23
 
This whole thing has been disheartening, to be short.

Which is a better option?

A. Pull the valve cover and inspect. Possibly pull the cam for inspection. Undecided

B. Adjust valves, change oil a couple times, ride, and monitor valve clearance.

I don't have a valve cover gasket handy, and I don't have a micrometer. I could possibly buy one and make the other pretty quickly.  Undecided Would I need to pull the cam in order to inspect it?

I don't want to risk catastrophic damage. Knowing what's going on in there would be nice, but it's a bit of trouble.

If it's just a little bit of inconsequential rocker wear, it may not be worth taking off the covers.

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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #37 - 09/05/16 at 08:59:27
 
I'd drain the oil in a CLEAN container and run a magnet through it and see if you have an inordinate amount of ferrous shavings.
Look for indicators of wear before you hunt where it's worn.
The valve cover does not need a new gasket. It's an oring arrangement. Haven't you been there? Why do you not know that?

TDC compression
Slack in both rockers.

TDC exhaust
Not sure about where the lobe is on that end of the cam,but it's Not down yet.
So, if you set the lash on TDC exhaust you would screw up the adjustments. The intake is coming up on the cam, what the overlap is, IDK. I'm expecting you have all four valves loosely adjusted..
Don't go digging into it. It's not time yet. I doubt it's hurt up top.
Did you have the clutch pack out?
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #38 - 09/05/16 at 09:01:27
 
I assume he's talking about the head cover... RTV
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #39 - 09/05/16 at 09:07:45
 
verslagen1 wrote on 09/05/16 at 09:01:27:
I assume he's talking about the head cover... RTV


Yep... Head cover
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #40 - 09/05/16 at 09:08:11
 
Nothing needs taken apart .. just adjust the valves, By The Book.

Unless the oil is carrying the missing piece s of parts.
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« Last Edit: 09/05/16 at 10:34:50 by justin_o_guy2 »  

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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #41 - 09/05/16 at 09:18:58
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/05/16 at 08:59:27:
I'd drain the oil in a CLEAN container and run a magnet through it and see if you have an inordinate amount of ferrous shavings.
Look for indicators of wear before you hunt where it's worn.
The valve cover does not need a new gasket. It's an oring arrangement. Haven't you been there? Why do you not know that?

TDC compression
Slack in both rockers.

TDC exhaust
Not sure about where the lobe is on that end of the cam,but it's Not down yet.
So, if you set the lash on TDC exhaust you would screw up the adjustments. The intake is coming up on the cam, what the overlap is, IDK. I'm expecting you have all four valves loosely adjusted..
Don't go digging into it. It's not time yet. I doubt it's hurt up top.
Did you have the clutch pack out?


When I inspected it the day of those videos above (Saturday), I found that it's pretty obvious about the exhaust stroke if you move the crank, and watch the timing marks and rocker move. The point at which the exhaust rocker settles is past TDC.

I haven't dug into it yet. When I first adjusted it many days ago, I set all to .004. They're all out of spec now, especially the exhaust. The exhaust is at least .011, if I remember. The intake is less severe. I don't have them adjusted right now. I took one loose though, as seen in the pics. I put it back loosely.
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #42 - 09/05/16 at 09:20:24
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/05/16 at 09:08:11:
Nothing needs taken apart .. just adjust the valves, By The Book.


Okay.
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #43 - 09/05/16 at 09:25:41
 
to check for the pin/oil gear, check oil pressure at the forward plug in the case.  You'll need an adapter.



T Mack 1 - FSO wrote on 11/13/07 at 10:38:12:
The test port plug is a 14mm bolt.  Interesting, it's the same thread as many spark plugs.   Since I'm not in europe and have a limit selection of metric adapters,  I made an adapter.  

Went to Auto-Zone and got a 14 mm "Spark Plug Non-Fouler" , Took an old spark plug from a lawnmower and took out the ceramic.  Drilled it and tapped to 1/8" NPT (included a little griding to size it better).  Then used a "1/8" npt to barbed"  fitting  and ran a tube to the gauge.    I probably could have skipped the "Spark Plug Non-Fouler" but I wanted a good grip for my socket.    Used a good deal of hi temp sealer.  Still have a tiny leak.

I think if I had access to a welder, I would have capped the "Spark Plug Non-Fouler" and dirlled and tapped that.   Less joints so less chance of leaking.

Do you want pictures?

TMack

ADDITION:  Got the gauge on Flea-bay.


T Mack 1 - FSO wrote on 11/14/07 at 07:25:11:
Smokin Blue,
  Thanks.  Your Earl's suggestion gave me the right words to Yahoo.  Found the below site.  Just have to go measure the old plug to see if it/s M14-1.25.

http://www.egauges.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=R7966

Also,  took some pict's.  Just have to get them up on the webserver.

TMack


Here's a little warning, these adapters are for checking the oil pressure, then remove them before riding.
They are not safe for prolonged use.
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Re: My first ride.... and the clutch drags.
Reply #44 - 09/05/16 at 10:37:33
 
Yeah, you better have a look at the oil pump drive,, that has killed a couple. Up top, I wouldn't be taking stuff apart yet.
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