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new head, new rings & combustion blow-by (Read 385 times)
justin_o_guy2
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #15 - 04/05/16 at 06:19:36
 
Mmmmkay, I went back and read. You lost the jug / case gasket in a big way. You started seeing real issue After you tightened up the oil fill.

Either something isn't kosher where that gasket sits or the internal pressure is too high or, a bit of both.

Some oil leak hunters have closed off the vent, sprayed soapy water on the engine and put a few PSI in the crankcase.

You might wanna Not block the vent and see if the engine is breathing right.
I'd sure inspect the surfaces that the jug gasket are on.
And how much goo goes on the head cover matters, and what kind, IMO.  Not RTV,,  

I'm not a real stickler for the torque wrenches, I go by feel on about everything,, but jug and head , I would use one.
Head cover, no.. just keep making passes getting tiny bits of a turn, pinching the sealer flatter and flatter until the bolts tell you
Th Th Th That's All, Folks.
You can feel it. Depends on how you hold the wrench, a closed hand is dangerous.

Sounds like you're going at it hard and fast. You might be ahead to slow down.
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deadman333
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #16 - 04/05/16 at 20:34:26
 
How did the head get cracked?  I am not positive, but I believe it was cracked before it came into my possession, but only the tiniest of cracks.  
  The first time I changed the oil on the bike I also changed spark plug.  The tool provided with the Suzuki tool kit to remove the spark plug did not fit the plug I was removing.  
  If I remember correctly I had to use a standard 9/16" or 5/8" deep socket to remove it.  At the auto store the guy looked up the plug for make and model of the bike,  and came back with a comepletely different spark plug.  The plug I pulled was definitely longer in the threads an not at all what Suzuki suggests.  
  I didn't think too much of it nor did I inspect for damage.  Although I racked up a lot of miles they were all freeway in non-traffic hours counting 45-50 miles one way to work.  
  No traffic,  riding in the sweet spot as far as rpm's the bike never got hot.  
  Now a year ago almost to the day I set out for Amirilllo, Tx from Fort Worth, Texas.  A 380-400 mile & six hour ride (without stops).  
About 60 miles into the trip heading due northwest the wind began to blow sustained at 35-45mph and heavy duty gusts.  
  The trip took almost nine hours and if the bike ever got hot it was I thin the first 200 miles of the trip.   At some point I lost a good amount of power, but the warning light for High Temp never lit.  
 After making it home a week later when the camping ,fishing, and golfing were all done in Amirilllo I inspected the bike. Changed oil, spark plug , Intake filter.
 This was when I first noticed a crack that was just past the spark plug threads.  It could have always been there, but I never was looking for it.  
 
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deadman333
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #17 - 04/05/16 at 20:40:02
 
I have the upper removed from frame and disassembled.  I will be posting my measurements and limits for piston, cylinder, and ring gaps, etc.  Possiby tonight but tomorrow for sure.  
  Also I did not include the fact that I did not muse a torque wrench when installing the double threaded studs the run thru the cylinder.  
  Of course I know it is likely my problem and the answer to my own question.
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deadman333
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #18 - 04/05/16 at 20:47:14
 
Blowing out the gasket for the second time did slow me down, and the reason I finally registered for this site and stopped using it as a guest so I could post my problem and glean the knowledge of those that know something about this.  Bought a digital caliper and a torque wrench graduated in small enough incraments to be accurate below 10ft-lbs.  
 I will have info on cylinder and piston measurements soon.   Replacement will gaskets and new studs and such will be here by the end of the business day tomorrow.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #19 - 04/05/16 at 20:52:34
 
Drag a fingernail up the cylinder wall and feel for a ridge at the top.
You can rent a tool to put the crosshatch on it.
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deadman333
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #20 - 04/06/16 at 11:30:47
 
There was a ring of hardened carbon built up around the top of the cylinder.  I carefully scrubbed it clean.  Best I can tell there is no ridge.  
  The top of the cylinder measures right at 94mm.  
I actually got 94.04mm 94.03, 94.01 & 94.00. Measured across, perpindicular and two diagonals.
  The piston I  measured 20mm from the bottom of the piston's skirt as suggested in the manual.  It measures 93.78mm & 93.84 on a secondary measurement.  
 I will measure the ring groves on the piston and the ring gaps while in cylinder today after carefully cleaning the piston grooves.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #21 - 04/07/16 at 20:32:12
 
So,if a Deadman survives the challenge, does he become a zombie, by default?
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deadman333
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #22 - 04/09/16 at 10:55:56
 
here are the measurements and specifications for piston, cylinder, rings, etc:

cylinder bore:        
    Upper cylinder:   94.03, 94.05,94.00mm
    Lower cylinder:   93.8, 93.78, 93.77mm
(i have to assume that the measurements for the lower part of the cylinder are most likely 94mm.  I mean how does a cylinder become smaller over time?)

ring gap(in cylinder):  .22mm and .36mm
 Should the ring with the largest gap be in the top groove on the Piston?

piston O.D:  93.84
Camshaft journal:
      right:  24.96mm
      center:24.96
       left: 19.96m

I also honed the cylinder wall.  sometimes known as crosshatching the cylinder.  I intend to begin the process of putting it all back together today.  
  Thanks
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #23 - 04/09/16 at 10:57:59
 
i believe a zombie to be considered the living dead.   My reward will come  from another 33,000 miles.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #24 - 04/09/16 at 12:06:33
 
Setting the compression ring in the cylinder and measuring the end gap, looking for even the slightest bit of light between ring and cylinder wall, clues as to just how straight and cylindrical the cylinder IS. I don't have ID micrometers, so I pay a machinist to check the bore before I go forward. Maybe just the end gap and cross hatch and go is good enough. Others have more
Deep inside the engine
experience.

Gotta use the piston and slide the ring down to several places and measure the gap. Gap changes? Cylinder diameter must be different.
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« Last Edit: 04/09/16 at 13:25:47 by justin_o_guy2 »  

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Kris01
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #25 - 04/09/16 at 14:25:53
 
From Clymers
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #26 - 04/09/16 at 20:34:55
 
Thank you for including the image of specs and wear limits.  I am currently using a downloaded repair manual of unknown origin, but it is thorough.  
 I noticed in the image provided above the Ring Gap within the cylinder is the same for both the first and second rings.  In the manual i am referencing it lists for rings within the Cylinder to be as follows:

 First ring within cylinder:  0.012-0.045mm
 Second ring within Cylinder: 0.010-0.016

Either way it appears that I included  the wrong data on my previous post, i measured or recorded my measurement incorrectly,   or my measurements of the ring gap within the piston is evidence that something is not within the recommended wear limits.  
 I will measure the ring gap within the cylinder again as soon as possible and post the results .  
Thanks again.
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #27 - 04/09/16 at 20:43:49
 
 i did use the ring within the cylinder to inspect the cylinder for wear in its center.  I did not detect any difference in the gap measurement, but i did not inspect for irregularities in how  closely  the ring met the cylinder wall as a previous post suggests.  
 I will do this when I re-measure the ring gap within the cylinder at several places up and down the cylinder wall.  
 I thought i was within wear limits and was ready to proceed with reassembly,  but if it is as it appears I will need to visit a machine shop with my cylinder and piston for professional assistance.  Which at least at this point seems like a no brainer. Right?
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #28 - 04/09/16 at 21:47:49
 
I've done some inside the engine work. Depending on the engine, I decide. Give me a thumper that I can haul the head, piston, rings and cylinder all in the car? Ohh, it's Going to the machine shop. ESPECIALLY if I already
Fixed it
once.
You don't have to go hunting for a bike shop. The same place where the local hot rodders take their engines to get that tricky valve job or get something bored out is where the Yamaha shop takes their stuff.
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deadman333
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Re: new head, new rings & combustion blow-by
Reply #29 - 04/10/16 at 11:38:41
 
   Remeasured Ring Results:     The rings are new. However, they do have approximately 75miles of use as per the story /info I shared

Free end gap.       1rst ring=11.77mm.   2nd ring13.86mm
  Both of the measurements above fall right where you'd want them to be.

End gap within piston: 1rst ring=0.41mm.   2nd ring=0.38
 Again I believe both measurements to be within wear limits.

I used the piston to push both rings thru the cylinder one at a time.  I measured the ring gap and closely inspected for any light penetrating between the ring and cylinder wall and measured the gap at every stop.  I found no difference in the gap, and no irregularities between the rings and cylinder wall.
  This info along with the info provided in my original post(compression test revealed 185-190psi) leads  me to believe that the piston & cylinder are not to be held suspect for the twice blown cylinder/case gasket.   There is a possibility it still could be, but I believe enough evidence has been established to at least look beyond them as the cause.

  Now, moving along.   When last I put the engine back Together I noticed after I installed the cylinder over the piston and atop the gasket & case-When I installed the lower cylinder nuts to the studs (located on the clutch side of the engine) the opposite side of the cylinder would lift enough I could see light between the gasket(still sitting atop the case) and thr base of the cylinder.  
 This happened again yesterday as I was meticulously putting it back together.  I have tried it three ways-
  1. Without installing the double threaded post thru the cylinder.
  2. With the post installed and lightly hand tightened
  3. With the post installed without the head in place, but the posts      
       torqued to specs

  Each way returned the same result: as I torqued the lower cylinder nuts ,as the manual suggested, the opposite side of the cylinder base would lift.  

 I believe this to be the reason my cylinder/case gasket has blown twice, but I can't come up with why the cylinder tends to lift when the lower cylinder  nuts are torqued.  
 I intend to pull the post and inspect for debris at the bottom of the post's threads.  Keeping one or both post from seating properly.
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