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Timing? (Read 195 times)
Savageman
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Timing?
01/05/16 at 16:40:57
 
Can the timing be adjusted? If I put a timing light on it where should the mark be? I know some oil will come out of the inspection hole but there's no where else to check it or is there? Put the bike on my floor jack to keep it level and fire it up.

It can't have fixed timing like a old faithful Briggs and Stratton engine?

There must be a way to adjust it???
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Timing?
Reply #1 - 01/05/16 at 17:20:44
 
Its not impossible,but not something just anyone can do but, nobody who has done it was so thrilled with it that it became something to put on the

List of stuff to do
to get it running good.
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Re: Timing?
Reply #2 - 01/05/16 at 17:28:00
 
Quote:
It can't have fixed timing like a old faithful Briggs and Stratton engine?


Sure can.

No provision for adjustment. Unless you can figure out a way to rewire the igniter. Or relocate the pickup relative to the rotor.
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Re: Timing?
Reply #3 - 01/05/16 at 17:46:02
 
It can be adjusted but I don't remember how. It's not a simple process. It's probably not even worth your time. If you want better performance just tune your carb properly.
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Re: Timing?
Reply #4 - 01/05/16 at 19:38:29
 
Non adjustable timing.
There's a Hall sensor inside the stator cover giving a pulse every revolution to the CDI

CDI adjusts the timing as follows:
5° ± 2°  BTDC at 2000 RPM
30° ± 2° BTDC at 4000 RPM

What you would do to adjust it is remove the stator cover, remove the sensor and slot the mounting hole hoping you go the right way.   Huh
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Savageman
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Re: Timing?
Reply #5 - 01/05/16 at 21:14:31
 
I haven't looked yet but does the stator have timing marks on it? Or just TDC? Maybe have to use a degree wheel and put my own marks on it...

I was thinking about slotting the p/u coil as well. If the timing doesn't need any tinkering then it's not worth it. But the old days with points and a adjustable plate it was a big deal. So what has changed?

Curious to see where the timing is at with the TDI in control.  Undecided
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Re: Timing?
Reply #6 - 01/05/16 at 21:21:51
 
Unless there is really something weird about how this system works, it should be that you simply figure out which way the engine normally turns, and then push the sensor in the opposite direction for advance and the same direction for retard. Am I not correct?

If the engine loses power and idles slower, possibly getting louder without pinging or knocking, it's retarded. If the engine speeds up its idle and gets quiet but is prone to knocking, it's advanced. However, if it's TOO advanced, it might slow down then too... and it will knock badly.

Ignition advance = knocking

Retard = no knocking

Yay! Cheesy
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cheapnewb24
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Re: Timing?
Reply #7 - 01/05/16 at 21:29:09
 
Grin

Of course, it will generally make the most power when it's advanced, but only up to a point. Retarding might give some advantages in the extreme low end of the rpm range (near stall), and should help prevent knocking.

Of course, what do I know, I'm the Cheap Newb!  Cheesy
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Savageman
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Re: Timing?
Reply #8 - 01/05/16 at 21:33:31
 
I believe you would go opposite way of crank rotation for advancing timing since the magnet will pass the hall sensor sooner.

Also if I remember correctly the amount of movement would be 1/2 the actual degree of rotation since the cam and spark timing are 1/2 speed of crank. Huh

Sounds complicated maybe not worth messing with?
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Re: Timing?
Reply #9 - 01/05/16 at 21:43:23
 
You could do the math...

Or you could just move it, and see if it works.

If it knocks easily at running temp and typical fuel and other conditions, you are too advanced.

If you lose power and fuel mileage, you are too retarded.

From what I gather, you might not want to push the knocking envelope too close. You might have harsh engine pressures but be just short of knocking, and not be able to tell it. I don't know about the sources though. It's just something I remember reading or something.

Just go by feel, and hope for the best. Smiley

Do the calculations if you wish and compare the numbers against industry standards for timing with similar conditions. However, that may take a lot of research.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. If it works, it works.

Could there be something wrong, and you not notice it? Possibly. There are risks with anything.

I can say that it will probably be more sensitive to lugging with advanced timing.  Sad
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Savageman
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Re: Timing?
Reply #10 - 01/05/16 at 22:02:24
 
I'll look into a electronic form of adjusting the timing.

It needs a circuit that will electronically advance or retard the signal from the p/u coil hall sensor. Then this can be wired in series with the p/u sensor and have a adjustment knob (pot) on it.

And like a Model T you could adjust the timing while riding and feel the difference!  Wink
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Re: Timing?
Reply #11 - 01/05/16 at 22:28:01
 
I am not an electrician or electronics specialist, but if you are saying that you know exactly how these things work, and that you can rewire this thing to use a variable resistor (I assume that's what a trimpot is) in order to adjust the timing electronically on the fly, then that would be cool.  Smiley

Maybe you can test it, and post the mod in the Tech Docs for us all to try.  Smiley
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Savageman
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Re: Timing?
Reply #12 - 01/05/16 at 22:35:37
 
I'll see what I can come up with after speaking with some colleagues of mine to see if it can be done cheaply and reliably.

I'll post it if it's feasible and functions. And hopefully doesn't burn a hole  in the top of the piston.  

Newby to this forum but old timer to electronics, engines, and mechanical things. Love this stuff! Smiley
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Re: Timing?
Reply #13 - 01/06/16 at 03:45:54
 
Savageman wrote on 01/05/16 at 21:14:31:
But the old days with points and a adjustable plate it was a big deal. So what has changed?


When you adjusted the points using a feeler gauge....there was a bit of error/play in the method, and as a result the points didn't always open at exactly the correct instant - therefore you had to rotate the distributor to get the timing proper.  Distributors also had a mechanical advance, and the springs and weights could be changed to alter the advance curve if needed.  (Today the pointless ignitions and electronic advance are not subject to those same variations).

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Savageman
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Re: Timing?
Reply #14 - 01/07/16 at 07:57:29
 
My point is that the ECU makes those changes for us automatically based on the design of the ECU software.

So if we were able to check the timing and change it on the fly it would be a important part of tuning it up to it's full potential.

The way it's "Detuned" now it puts out 30HP? A 650 with a 4 valve head should be closer to 50HP IMHO.  Roll Eyes
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