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Interesting Discussion (Read 233 times)
cheapnewb24
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Interesting Discussion
12/31/15 at 20:03:41
 
I pinned this tab several days ago. Thought it was interesting.

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/threads/22539/
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #1 - 12/31/15 at 20:15:27
 
If you want to spend money on your scoot get the crank machined out of titanium and titanium con rods made as well.  Triumph did that to get the Bonnie to do 120 on the salt flats.  Any time you lighten up the reciprocating mass you make more HP.   Titanium does not stretch like aluminium con rods do.  It is VERY notch sensitive and likes a generous radius on the crank fillets.

If you want to store energy use a heavy fly wheel like a lot of the early trials bikes did.
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cheapnewb24
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #2 - 12/31/15 at 21:21:03
 
A heavy flywheel may be what makes our thumper so tame and controllable. Ya think?

Am I wrong?

Maybe stroke length also has something to do with it?
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Art Webb
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #3 - 01/01/16 at 07:20:29
 
heavy flywheel, mild tune, and a rotating counterbalancer
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Steve H
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #4 - 01/01/16 at 10:15:25
 
Longer stroke gives you more torque at the expense of top end rpms.
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Kris01
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #5 - 01/01/16 at 12:41:08
 
Steve H wrote on 01/01/16 at 10:15:25:
Longer stroke gives you more torque at the expense of top end rpms.


I've commented about this before. It seems to me that our 6500 RPM redline is a little high for a stroke of 3.78".


http://www.csgnetwork.com/pistonspeedcalc.html

6500 rpm = 4094.488 ft/min (or 68.24 ft/sec). For an engine that's high tech for 1970, that seems exceptionally fast. I have no data to back this up though.
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #6 - 01/01/16 at 12:54:48
 
I guess that's the disadvantage of a big single: Either the bore gets huge or you have a long stroke. If you have a long stroke, you can't go fast. However, if you go slow, you need a humongous flywheel or else you'll have jolting in the low end because the power strokes are so far apart. Can't go fast--can't go slow.  Tongue What do you do?

Singles, strangely enough, seem to be known for low end torque. But then, I read someone say that they can't lug down as far as a twin, or V-twin, or something. Am I missing something here? Is it a matter of engine tuning? Ignition/cam timing, cam profile, fuel mixture?

By the way, can anyone tell me why many engines don't have retarded timing at low rpms?
Ever lugged one down to stall only to hear it knock/ping before it died. I remember my Savage sometimes did that. I haven't noticed it since the spacer mod, though. Shouldn't timing retard so far that it will continue to run even at extremely low rpms without knocking?
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #7 - 01/01/16 at 12:58:05
 
Kris01 wrote on 01/01/16 at 12:41:08:
Steve H wrote on 01/01/16 at 10:15:25:
Longer stroke gives you more torque at the expense of top end rpms.


I've commented about this before. It seems to me that our 6500 RPM redline is a little high for a stroke of 3.78".


http://www.csgnetwork.com/pistonspeedcalc.html

6500 rpm = 4094.488 ft/min (or 68.24 ft/sec). For an engine that's high tech for 1970, that seems exceptionally fast. I have no data to back this up though.


I don't really know about ideal piston velocities, but isn't it true that a longer con rod will help reduce undesirable piston forces? How long is the con rod?
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #8 - 01/01/16 at 13:04:13
 
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/engine-mods/1324568-safe-maximum-piston-s...

These Corvette guys are discussing this sort of thing. From a quick glance or two, you have a point: It is a bit fast for being an old design, but it's not unheard of.
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #9 - 01/01/16 at 13:11:05
 
Well...Reading further... Assuming that you did the calculations correctly, that does seem very high for a cheap old engine. Maybe that's part of why motorcycle engines don't normally last 200k. Anyone here get 100k without at least one overhaul?

Maybe there is some secret ingredient Suzuki threw in there to help it take those velocities. Huh
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #10 - 01/01/16 at 15:45:54
 
Actually, it's closer to 3.70 inches, not 3.78. According to Wikipedia, the bore/stroke is 94 mm x 94mm.

Using the calculator, it's around 4009 FPM, substantially less. It's still high, but closer to reasonable. Are you sure the engine was designed so long ago? The first Savage came out in the mid 80's.
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cheapnewb24
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #11 - 01/01/16 at 16:01:12
 
Are the forces within the engine proportional to the square of the velocity or something?Or is the relationship linear, like momentum? I read somewhere that the friction is proportional to the square like that. Huh

I know that kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity.

It could be that they are inversely proportional. Huh I'm not a physics buff.

The point I am proposing is that a small change in piston velocity could have a huge effect. Maybe that is why redlines are so important. Once you get so fast, the smallest speed increase could change the stresses immensely.

Am I getting mixed up here? Huh

I would think the most important thing is stress rather than friction. Does stress increase exponentially like friction, or does it increase linearly?
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Kris01
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #12 - 01/01/16 at 17:03:03
 
cheapnewb24 wrote on 01/01/16 at 15:45:54:
Actually, it's closer to 3.70 inches, not 3.78. According to Wikipedia, the bore/stroke is 94 mm x 94mm.

Using the calculator, it's around 4009 FPM, substantially less.



I think you're right. I was thinking 96 mm for some reason.
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Kris01
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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #13 - 01/01/16 at 17:05:58
 
cheapnewb24 wrote on 01/01/16 at 15:45:54:
Are you sure the engine was designed so long ago? The first Savage came out in the mid 80's.


I just meant this engine would be state of the art in 1970. It was actually designed/built years later.
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There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

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Re: Interesting Discussion
Reply #14 - 01/02/16 at 11:22:57
 
According to this:
http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/SteveWmaxpistonspeed.html


...with a 94 mm (3.701") stroke and 3500 fpm mean piston speed, we probably shouldn't be spinning any faster than about 5674 rpms (or around 85 mph in 5th gear).

How did Suzuki get their 6500 rpm redline? Just advertising mumbo-jumbo? I'm not seeing anything about this engine that would allow it to survive very long at 6500.
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There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

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