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Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem? (Read 265 times)
cheapnewb24
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Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
11/03/15 at 13:15:44
 
Hi, I am new to this forum, and apart from college class discussion boards, this is the first public forum I have ever joined. I am new to motorcycling. I took the MSF Basic course and got my license about a month ago. I got an '04 Savage for locally for $1K as my first bike.

The bike is a little beaten up, and sometimes I wish I could have gotten it even cheaper. It needs a neutral switch. The bike has been wrecked, probably multiple times since the pegs on both sides were bent. I guess it is a good thing I did not buy a really good bike since I lowsided it in a curve (10-30 mph) a couple weeks ago on my way to church. The rear tire is an 8 year old Metzler ME880, and the front is a brand new shinko 712 (I think). I had to replace the front tire since it was bald and wouldn't pass VA inspection. I gather that there is a controversy surrounding the belief that new tires are slick. Maybe I was another victim of slick new tire or an old rear--or I just leaned to far entering a curve going too fast  Cheesy. Anyway, I was wearing a leather jacket and plenty of clothes, so I wasn't hurt apart from minor road rash. In fact, I even finished my ride to church Cool. Apart from bending the footpeg (again!) and more scuffs to the bike, the worst thing was that I broke my rear turn signal Angry. I paid $25 for some used signals that went to an old Honda CB 360. They looked pretty good too. Well, that didn't last long. All that money and effort wasted...

Anyway, the previous owner said that the owner before him had trouble with the bike, and was afraid he had blown the engine, but the guy I bought it from figured out that it was the carburetor and he "rebuilt" the carburetor. Now, before I noticed any real problem there seemed to be a very subtle surging, like the firing was just slightly uneven. Is this normal? However, After the crash on the way back home, I noticed that it began to die so I switched to reserve thinking that I was running out of gas. That fixed it, and it made sense since I spilled some gas in the wreck. I went home and we filled it with some gas we had in a can. I believe it had a tinge of red from a bit of diesel contamination. I doubt that caused a problem. I began commuting to work with the bike, and I noticed that it started acting up on the highway, so I switched it to reserve and got some gas (non-ethanol). What I noticed is that I filled it up on less that $4 which made me think that it had not run out of gas after all. On the next commute to work, the bike started going crazy after I let off on the throttle and gave it gas again. I had to ride to work with the choke pulled and full throttle, missing all the way. I put carb/fuel inj cleaner and Seafoam. It did not fix it. I then took the carb off and took it apart. I found the float needle retainer clip lying in the bottom of the float bowl. There was also some water contamination in the float bowl. I put the clip back and tightened it so it would not fall off. I put it all back together, and tested it. It ran fine for awhile; however, then it began doing the same thing. I did not try to count how many times the bike has died, forcing me to pull to the side of the highway. I have put the hazard lights to good use. Sometimes, when I get it cranked back up, I really have to slip the clutch to keep it from dying in first gear. I remember at least once literally running with the bike (straddled) to help it launch. Reserve and choke seems to help, but it does not solve the problem. The problem seems to be triggered by high speed and heavy throttle (e.g. highway driving). However, I went to vote today, and all the driving was little back-country roads. I did not make it very far before it started acting up. The only thing I can think of is that I opened it all the way up running from a couple of little dogs. That might have started it, or maybe the problem is getting worse.
I spoke with a dealer mechanic some days ago, and he suspected something in the ignition system may be going bad. From what he told me, I may end up running around the countryside with an ohmmeter in my pocket. I read that a low battery can cause performance issues; could that be the problem? I tried riding without the gas cap today after the problem started, but that did not seem to help.

NOTE: DON'T GET ANY IDEAS ABOUT THE  VACUUM PETC0CK. SOMEONE HAS REPLACED IT WITH A MANUAL ONE It runs nearly a pint a minute. It is either a Raptor or something similar, but I have not yet found a part number. I took it off and looked at it it has one brass tube for the main and a white plastic screen tube for the reserve. The reserve tube is a little bent and has a few small holes. I bought an inline filter to stick on it. The only thing that could be wrong on that side is an intermittent clog or something wrong with the fuel in the tank, which I doubt. When I tested the flow, the fuel was relatively clean. An intermittent clog is possible, but I don't think it is the most probable thing. My Dad wants to take an air compressor to the tank and force the fuel out with air pressure. My opinion is to disassemble the carb again and soak the metal parts in a bucket of carb cleaner dip that we recently bought. I read someone suggest that one should not even get fingerprints on that carb slide. Could that be my problem? Wow, if that thing is that sensitive to contamination, how does it deal with gas and Seafoam and whatever else running through it constantly? Roll Eyes I did not notice any holes in the diaphragms, so unless there is something not so obvious that goes wrong with them (stretching??, hardening??, ideas anyone??), I don't think they are the problem. One last thing about the fuel system is a vacuum leak. I read about plugging off two lines when converting to a manual petcock. Well, only one line is plugged. I tried unplugging that line to see what it does, and indeed, it does cause a very obvious vacuum leak. However, the other line going to the float bowl does not seem to have any noticeable vacuum. Should it have vacuum? Does that one really need to be plugged? There seems to be an identical one on the other side which goes to the airbox, but I could not find exactly where it goes, so it is also hanging free now. By the way is it normal to pour out gas when the bike is laying on its side, or is that a sign that there is something that needs to be plugged up?
Probably the next thing that I would think of is testing or replacing the ignition coil.

Since this problem has shown itself, my Dad really tried to get me to trade in the little thumper for a Honda Shadow listed just under 2 grand. As good a deal as it may be, I find the savage to be a good beginner bike for me. Besides, my Dad already helped me to get an old '83 Shadow 750. It is not road ready yet. I'll tell you this, the way those early model Shadows were made, they are alot harder to handle than the little Savage, even though they were supposedly lighter than many of the modern Shadows. Those early shadow 750s actually had alot more power than the newer ones, particularly at high revs. The Shadow does have a better ride--or the tires are just low Grin. Having to push that shadow is much harder than pushing the savage. I live in the back-country with a driveway that turns to mud when it rains. Today, that mud was mighty silppery. Not only that, I have a steep dirt/gravel road in both directions to navigate. Wouldn't a light bike be valuable in these situations? The dealerships like to suggest that I get a dual sport Tongue. Not that I wouldn't have one of those, but I like cruisers, and dual sports are harder to find for $1000. To make the situation more interesting, I am a 6'1" 200 lb male. The sales people like to say the savage/s40 looks too small for me, and I have to admit that there is not a huge amount of legroom for my 32 inch inseam, but this is a  daily driver/commuter bike, and I plan on using it as such in as cold or rough of weather as practical for me (I ain't no poser Wink). I bought this bike with the idea that I would have a small beginners bike, but with more power and capabilities than a honda rebel. The idea is that I might be able to take it on the Interstate on occasion. Alot of beginner bikes (cough: rebel :cough) aren't very good at that.

Let me know if I missed anything Cheesy
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oldNslow
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #1 - 11/03/15 at 13:28:30
 
I'd try a new spark plug before I did anything else. Assuming of course that you're sure the carb is actually clean and assembled correctly and that whatever petcock is on there is actually flowing enough fuel. Take the fuel line off the carb, stick it in a jar, turn the petcock on, and check. Should be a solid stream of gas the same size as the id of the fuel line.

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OK.... so what's the
speed of dark?

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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #2 - 11/03/15 at 13:43:39
 
The Savage is a much better beginners bike, and the weight is a big advantage for anyone in the mud...
... and,..Ohh! I was so ready to say petcock!... Grin...

I'd replace 8 year old rear tire as soon as you can afford to...
They dry out, and lose traction...

On the carb,... you have a fuel line (you need that)... the vacuum line (should be blocked, as you have it)... and 2 vent lines (they go nowhere, just to vent the float bowl to allow gas to fill it)... (they are directed upwards into a cavity in the frame just in front of the seat...just a tidy place to put them)...

Don't blow compressed air anywhere on your bike, except into the tires...
Tank seams can blow... and rubber diaphragms will definitely tear...

Now, the problem...
I would be 98% sure, that it's a fuel problem... the ignition tends to be bulletproof...(although, you might try a new spark plug)...
So. you're looking in the right place...

I leave the guesses to others, for now... Wink...

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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #3 - 11/03/15 at 13:44:31
 
I haven't tried the spark plug yet, though it has crossed my mind before. Do you really think that could cause a severe, intermittent, and somewhat persistent problem like this? I haven't even had the spark plug out since I bought it. It has even crossed my mind that it could even be loose. I have dealt with loose spark plugs before on small engines, though I don't remember exactly what the symptoms were.

I could check the petcock fuel flow again. I timed the flow into a pint jar. That is why I said it flowed a pint a minute. I remember someone on this forum, I believe, saying that one needs at least a cup a minute, or something like that. I'll check it again to your specifications once I get the chance.
I'll take a look at the spark plug when I get the chance. It will probably be tomorrow before I can get one. What do you recommend for replacement?
Do you have any other ideas?
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #4 - 11/03/15 at 13:49:13
 
Any cheap ol' plug is fine... Champion, NGK, etc...
This bike is the opposite of a Maserati... Grin...
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #5 - 11/03/15 at 14:12:49
 
When you cleaned the carb......did you take out the seat for the float needle (There is a screw and bracket that holds the brass seat into the aluminum carb body)?  There is a small screen on top of it, and if that is blocked it can restrict the flow to the float bowl.
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #6 - 11/05/15 at 03:40:51
 
Off topic replies have been moved to this thread.
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #7 - 11/04/15 at 14:15:49
 
Alright, I found something. Behind the float valve, the screen had alot of junk in it. My Dad mentioned that it might be from the paper filters that oil companies use to filter gas. I will certainly put a filter on the fuel line.

The float valve was a pain to remove. I had to use vise grips. By that time I had already marred and distorted it a little. I will probably have to replace it. I also tore the float bowl gasket.  Undecided   Sad

I will certainly have to order a carb kit. Should I get the screen too? It doesn't seem torn but it is really wrinkly.

Were there supposed to be two o-rings on that float valve or just one?

I may just straighten the valve the best I can and put it back together for testing, so I won't have sit here with a torn apart bike half a millennium waiting for the parts to arrive Undecided Sad.
I'll just make good use of the fuel shutoff.

I have'nt used the carb cleaner yet. I will wait until I get the new parts for that. The reason I tore the gasket was from trying to pry it off the float bowl in anticipation of the dip.

Would that be the exact cause of the problem? Does the screen need to be completely free of contaminants to work reliably or can it still work half clogged?
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #8 - 11/04/15 at 14:27:48
 
The screens on the petcock and float valve are enough filter, any more and you'll have trouble with fuel flow.

the little screen comes with the float valve.

one
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #9 - 11/04/15 at 14:52:36
 
It's a manual petcock. I would have to tear it apart to even know if it has a screen. Does a raptor have a screen? It looks like a raptor, or a knockoff anyway. I certainly don't want to have to tear apart the carburetor to have to clean that little screen all the time, and replacing those valves all the time would not be nice.
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #10 - 11/04/15 at 14:59:34
 
When I removed the carburetor, the area around the intake manifold and throttle plate looked wet with gas. This may have been due to my frequent use of the choke to keep it running. Could it be that the engine was still starving for fuel due to poor vaporization of an improperly used enrichment circuit, or am I looking at another problem? It seemed that my problem was fuel starvation, but this makes me wonder a little. Huh Maybe a little bit of gas could have slipped out the float bowl during removal?
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #11 - 11/05/15 at 17:49:47
 
Well, well, well, I got everything back together, and now the thing leaks like a sieve Tongue The gasket was broken in two so Dad reached for the Copper Spray-A-Gasket. As we put it together, I tried and tried to tell him there was a gap, that the ends were not aligned, but he kept insisting on not taking it back apart. I ended up trying to fill everything up with the stuff, but when I turned on the gas after what seemed to be a few hours, gas came dripping out, copper with it. Goes to show how gas resistant that stuff is Tongue I will probably get a kit anyway to keep around, but I am going to see if I can get this thing going so I won't be without a bike. I also want to know if I fixed the problem. It's not much good to do everything to the bike and then never understand what was originally wrong with it. I have some cork gasket material somewhere, if only I could find it Undecided. I will probably use some plain hard cardboard, with maybe a little of the copper stuff. By the way, does that copper stuff have a hardening period or something?
As far as the valve is concerned, it is distorted, and the needle cannot rotate, but it goes up and down, which is all that matters. We took a knife and reamed the inner edge of the valve seat to help the needle stay loose. The only thing that is really critical is the seat deep down in there, I reckon. It wasn't the easiest thing to push back in there. The o-ring was intact, but misshapen. It should do the job, though, especially as tight as those things are. Seriously, press that thing in and clamp it down, as if the thing is really going to fall out that easily Tongue. Well, it could be possible in some cases, but probably not in mine. Anyway, I cleaned out the gas tank into some jars. It had a little bit of junk in it; even had a bug in it Cheesy. As I was shaking it around I periodically could hear something rattling around in there like a BB or something. I kept shaking trying to get it out. The mysterious object fell upon the ground (Cue: angels singing). Lo and behold, the object was none other than the fuel filter Grin. While the reserve filter was still there, the main filter had become loose on its brass stem and fallen off into the tank, allowing whatever crud that wished to pass through the fuel line and become caught in that annoying little loat valve screen. The thing must have stretched, for it was loose on the stem, so Dad took a phillips screwdriver and swelled and burred the stem so that the filter would not fall off. Now we're back in business Cool. Now I just need to make a successful gasket. I also took apart the petcock to check for grime; there doesn't appear to be any. The rubber part with four holes is torn in one place, but apparently not enough to render it unusable. I also cleaned the battery connections before I connected the battery. I may still put the inline filter on eventually since there are a few pinholes in the reserve filter, but at least I don't have to worry so much about stopping up that screen now Smiley
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #12 - 11/05/15 at 20:57:29
 
Well guys, we're back in business, or Back in Black, if you like AC/DC Grin Mom and Dad helped me make the gasket and they insisted on the copper stuff, so I put two coats on each side of the gasket, let it dry a few minutes and put in on. No noticeable leaks[b]

[b]HOWEVER, LET IT BE KNOWN ACROSS THIS FORUM THAT PERMATEX COPPER SPRAY-A-GASKET WILL READILY DISSOLVE INTO GASOLINE


Or, at least the can I had did Tongue I ended up bleeding the float bowl three times to get rid of that copper dust which leached off the internal edges of the gasket.
I hope a little copper dust doesn't hurt the engine. She cranked right up, and I drove it up and down the driveway. Good power. I'll not be totally sure until I take it on the highway tomorrow for a good long hard test drive.

I know one thing, it sure is tight getting in there with a screwdriver, even a stubbie. Darn batterybox Tongue
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #13 - 11/06/15 at 04:02:12
 
Good job, good choice on bike, big guy like you on a 250, not goin anywhere too quick that way.
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Re: Help! Fuel starvation or ignition problem?
Reply #14 - 11/08/15 at 16:12:51
 
Haven't ordered parts yet; I've just been driving the thing Grin

Got 115 or 116 miles before switching too reserve. I guess that might be 58 miles to the gallon if the main is 2 gal exactly. I doubt it though. I wonder how much capacity is on the main, not including reserve.
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