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Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires (Read 427 times)
alienbogey
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Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
05/12/15 at 20:58:15
 
Hi,

We bought a 2007 S40 with 19,000 miles on it for my wife's first bike.  It backfired when we test rode it, but we had done our research (on this forum, thanks!) and knew that was common for S-40's and figured we could fix it.

So....we went to drill out the brass plug on the idle mixture screw and found it already gone.  Hmm, okay, figured we'd leave that alone at first.

Then we got into the carb from above and removed the white spacer.  There are conflicting threads about whether to replace it with washers and if so how many.  We decided to go with two washers which we figured was about half the thickness of the white spacer.

We reassembled everything, fired up the bike, and backed out the idle mixture screw while waiting for the bike to begin to stumble, and the dang screw got to almost flush (9 turns) before we heard a difference in the idle.  We decided to return it to the original position (we counted the turns carefully).

So, today was our first chance to ride it and......it still backfires, perhaps worse than before.

Before, when my wife rode it it only backfired on shutdown.  Now it will occasionally backfire after downshifting with engine braking.

She's using the workaround to pull the choke out for a few seconds before shutting it off, because the backfire scares the heck out of our dog.

Any suggestions for our next move or moves?

Thanks.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #1 - 05/12/15 at 21:04:44
 
The smallest air leak anywhere in your exaust will cause backfires as well.  I doubt if raising the needle will make much difference in how the idle circuit performs.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #2 - 05/12/15 at 21:26:16
 
leak at the head, header/muffler joint,
9 turns on air fuel isn't okay. It can fall out. Add a spring from a ball point .
I THINK air,fuel mix relates to the Isle screw.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #3 - 05/13/15 at 03:21:13
 
Backing the fuel mixture screw out more than 3 turns does nothing.  Once you reach 3 turns the needle has backed out of the orifice and will no longer restrict flow.  You either have something plugging up your pilot jet - or you need a bigger pilot jet.  You may have had the idle speed set too high to properly set the mixture screw...it cannot be set if the idle is so high that the slide and jet needle have begun to open.

Clean the carb thoroughly and make sure everything is clean.  If the bike has the stock air filter box, I would start with a #50 pilot jet. 2 washers and a #150 main.

First warm the bike up thoroughly and set the idle mixture screw at 1.5 turns out.  The idle should be a bit lower than normal so you can accurately set the mixture.  Adjust the idle mixture screw as shown in the video below.  The ideal setting listed by Mikuni is 1.5 turns.  If you have to back the screw out more then 2 turns - you need a bigger pilot jet.  Not just for correct idle - but also for a proper mixture as the carb transitions to the needle jet as the fuel source.  If you can turn the mixture screw all the way in and the bike still runs...the jet is too big....more than 2.5 turns out to get optimum idle smoothness - the jet is too small.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm5mB3R8Ucw

Once you have the pilot jet set correctly, adjust the idle speed back up to 1,000 - 1,100 rpm.

Next the main jet is chosen by making full throttle acceleration runs.  I would start with a #150 and see how it runs at full throttle.  If it runs well then install the next larger one.  If it runs better great....if it burbles or runs slower....go back to the #150 or a #147.5 and see how it runs.

Once you have the main jet set the needle is the next place to go.  The bike should run smoothly when you just begin to roll on the throttle slowly and accelerate.  Ride like you have the Police watching you closely.....or have your wallet sitting on the seat behind you and you don't want to lose it.  As you slowly roll the throttle on the bike should accelerate very smoothly...without any hesitation or flat spots.  If the bike is lean in this transition the bike will "surge", as if it doesn't know how fast to accelerate.  Take washers out from under the needle to make this go away....start with 3 washers and if you feel the surge go to 2 washers.  If the bike burbles and sounds rich...add a washer.

Backfires - If you have done all the carb jetting properly....then the bike will run properly and any backfires that remain are either part of owning a big single....or you have an air leak in the exhaust system.  Backfires do occur if you let the throttle close completely when shifting gears or closing the throttle completely to use engine braking.  Loud or unbaffled mufflers make it worse.  The backfire comes from closing the throttle completely when riding - which shuts off the fuel flow through everything but the idle circuit....the engine is pulling a lot of air but cannot get enough fuel and the lean mixture cannot be ignited by the sparkplug - but is ignited in the hot exhaust system.

Trying to jet the carb to eliminate backfiring is not proper.  You jet the carb so the engine runs well.  The Carb does have a TEV valve that is supposed to add some additional fuel during the high vacuum situations and help reduce backfiring - I don't think it works well enough with the ethanol fuel that is used today.   When you clean the carb make sure the TEV is clean...it is the spring and diaphragm thingy with 3 screws on the right front top of the carb.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #4 - 05/13/15 at 07:01:11
 
Just a note about "engine warm up time".
It is important that the engine be completely warmed up before starting the tuning process.  Completely warm means that your bike needs to run at idle for 10 minutes or to take it out for a few miles on the road before starting the tuning process.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #5 - 05/13/15 at 08:51:53
 
Thanks a bunch for the replies.  Follow up questions:

•  What's a good source for the different jets?  Online or auto parts store or Suzuki dealer?

•  The bike has rash on the exhaust pipe, so we're thinking of switching to a Harley pipe per the thread in the stickies.  I'm guessing it would be best to swap pipes first, and then go through the carb cleaning/jetting/tuning process?

•  This feels like a dumb question, but when you say "clean the carb thoroughly" are we talking about completely removing and disassembling the carb, or running some sort of cleaning product through it while still on the bike??

As you can tell we're not very experienced with motorcycle maintenance or engines in general, but we have tools and can follow directions and YouTube videos.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #6 - 05/13/15 at 08:56:04
 
Most likely your dealer won't be a good source for jets....unless you have a very good dealer with very good mechanics.

Lancer is the best source of jets if you don't know what you need or where to get it.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1336741909

Yes, completely remove and clean the carb.  Stuff like Seafoam can be helpful for light deposits...but most likely it needs to be taken apart and cleaned properly.

Jetting should be done after the DYNA muffler change.

Where do you live?
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #7 - 05/13/15 at 11:09:21
 
Thanks for the source for jets.

I just went out and checked for exhaust leaks.  Not knowing any other way to do it, I started the bike and held my hand around where the header pipe plugs into the cylinder, and where the muffler joins the header pipe.  I felt no leaks.

Is there a better way to check?

When we got the bike the one of the header pipe bolts to the cylinder head was pretty loose, and I re-torqued them to specs.  (The bike came with a service manual.)

So, I'm thinking my wife will keep riding the bike, which really runs okay except for the backfiring, until we can obtain jets and a Dyna muffler (or equivalent).  Then we'll dive into removing/disassembling/cleaning the carb, reinstalling, and following the jetting/carb tuning instructions.

Tongue

I'll be rather amazed if we put it back together and it runs without a lot of mistakes and cussing.

Does the carb have to come off the bike to change out jets?  

(We live in Gig Harbor, WA)
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #8 - 05/13/15 at 11:41:25
 
alienbogey wrote on 05/13/15 at 11:09:21:
Does the carb have to come off the bike to change out jets?  


No, once the tank and seat are removed it can be rotated. But it is easier to work on removed from the bike. With the carb on its side (rotated and still on the bike) it is likely that the float pin will work its way out. Besides, with the bowl removed its a good time to clean the carb...can't really do that on the bike.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #9 - 05/13/15 at 12:03:06
 
Hey Alienbogey, I also live in Gig Harbor WA and own and ride a 2012 S40. My S40's workings are all stock, except the air-mix idle screw and petcock. So here's what I have discovered:
1. After-firing and crackling on decel are much worse in cool weather, and before it is thoroughly warmed up. 2 oz of STA-BIL to the tank will reduce this somewhat. If it's +/- 50*F, I just run half choke and that eliminates any issues.
2. The little gas station/store in Ollala, on the waterfront by the bridge, sells non-Ethanol unleaded exclusively. This gas makes my S40 run a whole lot better, and with choke off just "Puffs" on shut-off. Still crackles a bit on a quick roll-off, tho. Suggested mods may be needed to completely eliminate.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #10 - 05/13/15 at 12:29:44
 
HappyDan:

What a coincidence that you're in Gig Harbor also.

Thanks for the tip about the ethanol-free fuel.  The fuels business between downtown GH and the Burnham roundabout (can't remember the name right now) also sells ethanol free fuel if that would be more convenient for you.

As it happens, just yesterday I filled her tank and mine with some high-octance race fuel leftover from last fall.  I'm not going to keep putting that expensive stuff in the bike, but we'll see if it affects the backfiring.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #11 - 05/13/15 at 13:26:10
 
HappyDan....Alienbogey.

You both need to go into "My Center" by hitting the icon at the top of the page.  Update your information so that your location (City,State) shows up on the left side of the page.

You can connect with a whole lot of good folks that way..........
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #12 - 05/13/15 at 15:27:35
 
If the bowl has never been removed from the carb, getting the bolts out with it still on the bike might be harder than pulling the carb.
Not having the right tool to remove them will be a certain problem.
I can't remember the name, but a number two Phillips won't do it. I ground the tip until the X on the bolt head was filled with screwdriver tip.
An impact, really nice. Id be putting some penetrating oil on them every day till you get around to doing it.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #13 - 05/13/15 at 19:26:33
 
It'scalled JIS - Japase Industrial Standard. Motorcycle shops should carry them or check Amazon.
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Re: Did Carb Mods, Still Backfires
Reply #14 - 05/14/15 at 08:59:32
 
@ Happydan:

I found a pair of brand new Dyna takeoff mufflers, the exact part number recommended to swap.  Would you be interested in the other one?

(I would have PM'd you, but I don't have enough posts yet)
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