SuzukiSavage.com - New member with an interesting build!

HondaLavis

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #15 - 01/06/15 at 16:34:42

Clymer says 145-203 PSI as standard, with a service limit of 116 PSI.

Nice looking buggy! Try to figure out what kind of carb you have, and see if you can't compare it to the round slide performance carb that Lancer sells. He is very wise about tuning; perhaps he can point you in the right direction to get that thing going.

Is it possible that a previous owner set it up to limit at 3500 for a reason? Maybe limiting speed? I'd imagine 50-60 mph in a dune buggy is awfully fast! Hope you have good brakes!!

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paulmarshall Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1268 Carterton,New Zealand Gender:	Re: New member with an interesting build! Reply #16 - 01/06/15 at 21:37:09 Nice buggy but that motor must run super hot mounted back there without air flow.
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RobSutt

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #17 - 01/06/15 at 22:22:00

Considering it was also probably running VERY lean due to the backfiring I am hoping it is not hosed on the inside from prolonged over heating. Going to do compression tests this weekend and pull the side covers. They leak oil already.

If I get it running solid I am likely going to have to mount an electric fan or something back there to help keep it cool. Especially considering most of its time is spent in the desert! HOT!

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Boofer Serious Thumper Offline Nearly too old. Posts: 1760 N Ms Gender:	Re: New member with an interesting build! Reply #18 - 01/06/15 at 22:45:25 Rob, just to throw you another curve: a lot of us run Rotella 15w40. I run regular and some run synthetic. Our carb is a BB40S or something close. Can't remember exactly.
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Dave

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #19 - 01/07/15 at 04:16:54

I imagine the original engine for this buggy had an engine driven cooling fan.....and you may need one as well, and you may need to add some duct work to route the air around the cylinder. Maybe a scoop to collect air and direct it over the cylinder would be adequate?

When you get it running, you might consider adding a temperature gauge. I have one on my bike and the sender is supposed to go under the spark plug - but that is a pain so I put the sender under a cylinder head nut. My bike will get close to 300 degrees on a hot day while riding slowly on gravel roads....on the highway it never gets over 280.

You also should be aware that if you do add an electric fan, the Savage only has about 100 watts of generating power. This is only 8 amps.....so pick a fan that draw well below that so you have some power left over for charging the battery. You might consider having the fan controlled by a switch - so you can turn it on only when it is needed. Another option would be to run the fan off the drive train...and/or add an oil cooler if the engine temperatures run high.

Here is one option for a temperature gauge. My only issue with most of these gauges, is the internal battery is not replaceable. They claim battery life if 5 years.....but it sure would be nice if you could just spend $ 5 to replace the battery when needed, instead of throwing away a $ 42 gauge that probably cost about $ 60 with shipping.
http://www.trailtech.net/digital-gauges/tto/722-es2

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RobSutt

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #20 - 01/07/15 at 12:14:59

Dave wrote on 01/07/15 at 04:16:54:

When you get it running, you might consider adding a temperature gauge. I have one on my bike and the sender is supposed to go under the spark plug - but that is a pain so I put the sender under a cylinder head nut.

I've got a gauge but it's not hooked up to anything near the cylinder or head so i need to move it. Ppl amaze me sometimes. Do you have a recommended pickup/sensor to use? I like the head bolt idea a lot more than the plug.

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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18098 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: New member with an interesting build! Reply #21 - 01/07/15 at 12:34:31 The temperature sensor I used came with the gauge.....I don't know if the sensors are interchangeable between brands.
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RobSutt

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I guess I should start a build thread?
Reply #22 - 01/08/15 at 21:09:28

As some have seen I have a thumper engine in a dune buggy. I thought I may be able to fix some oil some leaks and get the carb right but.....

Tonight I ran the all important compression test and I maxed out at 100psi. If I understand correctly that's way below normal and 16 below service limit. Am I right?

If so here starts my sort of special buggy thumper rebuild thread.

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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6067 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: I guess I should start a build thread? Reply #23 - 01/08/15 at 21:50:06 standard 142-200 psi limit 114 psi ssm
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: I guess I should start a build thread? Reply #24 - 01/08/15 at 21:58:13 Well,has it been running? Or are the rings dry from just sitting? I would get it running before I decided anything. The simplest,quickest,don't matter if it's leaking, or even if it can be driven, just make the motor run..then check it out..
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Re: I guess I should start a build thread?
Reply #25 - 01/08/15 at 22:45:55

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 01/08/15 at 21:58:13:

Well,has it been running? Or are the rings dry from just sitting?
I would get it running before I decided anything. The simplest,quickest,don't matter if it's leaking, or even if it can be driven, just make the motor run..then check it out..

I wish. It runs now. Not well mind you. Oil leaking in at least 3 seals too. It really has the...."I stuck a big bad air cooled engine behind the seat of a buggy and ran the crap out of it in the desert for a couple years with a temp gauge not connected to something that matters".

Is that a thing? Lol

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Dave

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #26 - 01/09/15 at 04:25:00

It would be best is you just keep this thread intact....we could then follow the ordeal from start to finish. It is hard for members to follow what is going in when you break the event up into multiple threads.

If you do add some motor oil to the cylinder and the compression rises, it is an indication that the rings are not sealing well.

Then, it sounds like you need to take it apart and see what is causing the low compression. When you take the engine apart you need to check the condition of the cam, rockers and cylinder head - this engine has very low oil pressure if the idle was set below 1,000 rpm, and often the bearing surfaces on the cam are ruined as a result. Also the cam lobes and rockers can be damaged if the oil had too low of a ZDDP level. Then obviously check the piston and cylinder condition. Also you should check the Cam Chain Tensioner extension and if it is getting close to 20mm extension - then you need to obtain a Verslagen modified tensioner or replace the cam chain. Then button things up with new gaskets and seals.

If the piston/cylinder is in poor shape....I am not sure I would recommend a high compression Wiseco, as the engine most likely has cooling problems already. It might be better to find a good used piston and cylinder (or if the cylinder is good just a piston). The silicone carbide treatment of the cylinder might also be a good investment to help make the piston/cylinder more durable. It is my belief you should spend as little as possible to get this engine healthy again, then spend a summer driving it and determine if the engine can be used in this application reliably.

And finally....maybe this is not the correct engine for this use. As much as we love this engine it may not be the ideal engine for use in the back of a buggy that is going to be used in the desert. Adding air ducting, a cooling fan, or an oil cooler may help - but the oil flow in this engine is not very high and additional cooling provided by an oil cooler may be minimal (but any increase will help). Maybe you need to find a good engine that is water cooled like a Honda 450 CRF, a Suzuki DR400, or some similar engine.

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« Last Edit: 01/09/15 at 09:55:51 by Dave »

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #27 - 01/09/15 at 06:05:59

Okay,you've run it, that's the good news... Now, that compression reading is worth looking at. And, that's not really good news. Now, cool as these engines are, you've Seen what the installation,,,application,,,in this case has done. Do you Really Know how long it held up, in terms of hours running in the sand? Do you really believe that That buggy PLUS a human IN the Sand is a job for A 650 thumper? I agree with you needing a fan, but they won't run on their own, and the charging system is not a real powerhouse, so,you've got some decisions to make,,
How is your buggy geared?
What size are the tires?
What does the whole buggy weigh?
What will it be carrying?
How fast do you WANT it to be
How Quick do you want it to be?

I can see this engine on a really fun 4 wheeled something.. seriously mean
Go Kart, or, a 4 wheeler for a dirt track, but sand? I've ridden 4 wheelers in sand, and the same ones on dirt. The speeds are very different,because the HP requirements for uphill in sand is a lot different than uphill in dirt. It's not hard to see, a short walk in sand,,,,well, tires that sit on top Matter, but it is still a big difference between sand and dirt. Not to mention the air filter requirements for sand,

I'll be watching this thread. How you proceed,what you decide, I'm interested. Glad you are here. And, I will be over here,cheering you on, hoping to see you get out on the sand,with whatever engine you decide on..

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RobSutt

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #28 - 01/09/15 at 09:42:14

Dave, a Justin... Thanks and totally agree. I'm going to pull it and tear parts down to see what's there.

Generally it actually won't be in sand much. Most trails out here ppl ride are packed earth. I'm not a "dune" guy per say. May give it a shot a few times. True dune riding like at Glamis is crazy nuts dangerous these days. To many drunks without spotters. This is more for family fun.

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Dave

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Re: New member with an interesting build!
Reply #29 - 01/09/15 at 10:13:58

Looking at the suspension, tires and wheelbase - I believe you are going to find that the Savage engine will have plenty enough power to propel you to the limits of the chassis.

And if you can build some ducting (and/or a small fan) to move air across the engine it would sure help. On my motorcycle there are only 2 scenarios that would get the cylinder head temp up to 300 degrees....and both happened on 90-95 degree days. (The 300 degree temperature most likely is not overheated......it is just the highest I ever saw on the bike).
1) When I had the stock gearing, sustained interstate speeds over 70 mph would get the temperature to climb. At this speed the engine was running at a sustained 4,000 rpm.
2) On one trip to the Tail of the Dragon we were slowly climbing a steep uphill gravel road. The road was really bumpy and I was just above idle in 1st gear, and there was little airflow at this low speed.

You are never apt to encounter the sustained 4,000 rpm condition on the buggy. You are more apt to encounter trails that require you to do slow speed running for extended periods....and adding some cooling flow for these situations would certainly be advisable. Having a temperature gauge would certainly be a benefit when you get it running.....as it will help you to determine what you need to do to make the engine survive.

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