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Jetting for ethenol vs straight fuel? (Read 74 times)
Knucklehead
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Jetting for ethenol vs straight fuel?
08/06/14 at 11:38:14
 
I'm a newbie to the Savage and am waiting on my jet kit to arrive.  Is the jetting different for ethenol vs straight / real fuel?
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Dave
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Re: Jetting for ethenol vs straight fuel?
Reply #1 - 08/06/14 at 13:32:59
 
Well yes and no.

Ethanol fuel requires a tiny, weeny bit more fuel to mix with the gas than straight gas.  If you ride your bike and jet it so that it runs perfect on straight gas....it is gonna be a tiny bit lean on fuel with 10% ethanol.  If you jet your bike for ethanol laced pump gas.....it is going to be a bit rich when you run straight gas.

Fuel injected engines can adapt to the different fuels - engines with carbs can't.  I have a generator that was made when fuel did not have ethanol in it, and the generator has a feature that allows it to go back to idle if there is no electricity being used.  The engine was made just before the ethanol fuel came out - but late enough that the EPA was able to eliminate the mixture adjustment screws on the carb - so the main and idle mixtures cannot be adjusted.  If I run the engine on pure gasoline, the engine comes off idle and speeds up as soon as you squeeze the trigger on the drill, saw, etc.  If I run 10% ethanol pump gas in the generator, when it tries to come off idle it is running too lean and it stalls.

So...the bottom line is that if you ride this motorcycle around and need to get pump gas, then jet it to run well on pump gas.  If you then run pure gas, it will be just a slight bit richer....and probably a bit more powerful.  (If you jet it to run on pure gas - it will be just a bit lean when you run pump gas....and that is not good!).  

I found this on what appears to be a pretty thorough webpage:

"Oxygenated fuels enlean the air/fuel ratio due to the additional oxygen contained in the fuel. An E10 blend contains about 3.5% oxygen. To put this into perspective, this is the same effect that would be experienced for the denser air resulting from a 30°F temperature drop or a decrease of 1,500 feet in altitude. All regular street driven vehicles experience such changes in normal operations and do not require any special modifications. Unless an engine is tuned to the absolute limit (very few non-race engines are) the additional oxygen presents no problem."

On a race car that is tuned to a specific air/fuel ratio, the enleanment from the oxygen can be offset by increasing fuel flow by a percentage comparable to the oxygen content of the fuel. This is normally accomplished by changing the carburetor jets to the next largest size since each jet usually represents a 3% to 4% increase in fuel delivery.

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Dave
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Re: Jetting for ethenol vs straight fuel?
Reply #2 - 08/07/14 at 07:57:03
 
Which makes me wonder?  Our bike was designed in an era when fuel did not have any ethanol content.  We have become accustomed to making jet changes to get the mixture a little better so the bike runs correctly....no big deal.

It may be that the TEV ciircuit could actually be suffering a bit from the use of ethanol fuels.  The TEV (Throttle Enrichement Valve) is supposed to add some additional fuel when you are operating at a high vacuum (deceleration or between gear shifts when the throttle is suddenly closed) - when you do this the high engine vacuum pulls a lot of air past the slide and throttle plate - but the only fuel circuit that is open is the idle circuit.  This idle circuit cannot supply enough fuel to make a combustible mixture in the cylinder....so the spark plug cannot ignite it, and when it goes into the hot exhaust system it is ignited.  The TEV circuit is supposed to add enough extra fuel to keep the mixture rich enough to burn in the cylinder - but in some cases it does not.....so folks start putting bigger jets in to correct this issue.  Unfortunately the bigger jets are not good for economy or power, and it wastes fuel.

I wonder if the TEV circuit worked well with gasoline......but is not sufficient to work with ethanol laced E10?  Is there some way we can increase the jet sizes in the TEV?  Cutting the spring only makes the TEV work sooner or more often....I don't believe it increases flow once the valve is opened.

Who wants to look at a carb and see what the TEV circuit uses to control flow volume?  I don't have a stock carb anymore....so don't have anything to look at.  

Dave
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Knucklehead
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Re: Jetting for ethenol vs straight fuel?
Reply #3 - 08/07/14 at 08:48:59
 
Thanks a million for the good feedback.  It's great to get the technical explanation and then the mathematical calculation.  I feared that the difference would be noticeable.  I live on the coast in Florida so I think I'll jet for real fuel and buy fuel at the marine docks.  The generator example makes that decision easy.  I forgot to mention in my original post that the bike is a 2009 and the owners manual says that up to 10% ethenol mix is fine.
Thanks guys.
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Re: Jetting for ethenol vs straight fuel?
Reply #4 - 08/08/14 at 07:01:02
 
Funny story about ethanol:
When my wife and I were acourtin' she had a 50 Suzuki step through, and her brother was racing go karts. He wanted to go to the store to get parts for his bike, but there was no gas in hers so he put fuel in it (ethanol+klotz+nitro), did his errands, and parked it without telling her.
She came home from school and set out to pick me up from work, where I took over the driving. I noticed it wouldn't idle very well so took to revving it a bit at stoplights. At one light it ran itself up to max rpm. I turned off the key and it kept screaming away. I yanked the plug wire (with my bare hand, giving myself a helluva jolt and possibly causing the congestive heart condition I have today) and it kept screaming away. I pushed it into a gas station where someone pulled the plug and it quit.
All it needed to fix it was a bore, piston and rings, and a new head, because the "mechanic" cross threaded the plug when he re-installed it.
That was an amazing little bike. My wife and I flogged it severely- riding it 2-up on the highway, not worrying about how much gas and oil it was going to use, but how many spark plugs it would take to get us there. When it needed it's third bore and there wasn't enough cylinder wall left, we retired it.
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