SuzukiSavage.com - Oil change with out ZDDP?

sailorcolin

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Oil change with out ZDDP?
04/24/14 at 06:12:38

SO I changed my oil yesterday with T6 but did not add ZDDP additive. Before you get your panties in a bunch I am going to tomorrow when it comes in the mail. I did run that bike ad check the levels. I know it is not going to seize on me but how "bad" is it to run with out the additive? I forced myself not to ride to work today, even though it is the last nice day for a while. Sad

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WD

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #1 - 04/24/14 at 06:33:53

You'd have been alright to ride. Neither of my bikes is fond of synthetic oil, yours may be just fine with it.

Rotella has sufficient chemicals (for now) for our antique engine design. If adding some zddp gives you piece of mind, use it too.

My 98 was run for several years on Castrol GTX 20W50 with no ill effects. On the recommendation of a Suzuki factory race team mechanic. The same one who had me break in the engine by "Ride it like you hate it and want to see it blow up"... No problems there either, valves haven't needed to be adjusted, ever.

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oldNslow Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 2683 Rochester, NY Gender:	Re: Oil change with out ZDDP? Reply #2 - 04/24/14 at 06:41:00 Pretty sure that the majority opinion on here is that Rotella has enough ZDDP in it to be at the lower level of what's considered enough. I think quite a few people run it without any additive. Ride your bike until your additive comes in. You won't hurt it.
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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18099 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Oil change with out ZDDP? Reply #3 - 04/24/14 at 07:15:26 Rotella most likely has enough ZDDP for the Savage......and we just add a tadd extra cause if makes us feel good. Failure because of low ZDDP levels in modern oils (50% of what our Savage needs) is not instant failure - but can damage the cam long before it would wear out with good oil.
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sailorcolin

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #4 - 04/24/14 at 07:47:39

WD wrote on 04/24/14 at 06:33:53:

You'd have been alright to ride. Neither of my bikes is fond of synthetic oil, yours may be just fine with it.

Rotella has sufficient chemicals (for now) for our antique engine design. If adding some zddp gives you piece of mind, use it too.

My 98 was run for several years on Castrol GTX 20W50 with no ill effects. On the recommendation of a Suzuki factory race team mechanic. The same one who had me break in the engine by "Ride it like you hate it and want to see it blow up"... No problems there either, valves haven't needed to be adjusted, ever.

What do you mean they don't like the synthetic?

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verslagen1

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #5 - 04/24/14 at 08:19:00

rotella has about 1200 ppm zddp, which is fine for a fresh oil change.
the question is when does that become depleted?
zddp does not do anything in suspension, it works by adhering to a bare metal surface. it doesn't develop multiple layers, so the extra amount doesn't do anything but hang around looking for an empty chair.
and as long as the oil does it's job and prevents metal to metal contact, zddp isn't needed. which is where our flat tappet cam followers come in. oil is constantly being wiped/flung off of the cam particularly at high rpm causing metal to metal contact. the zddp goes boom and another rushes in to take its place or the music will stop.

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WD

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #6 - 04/24/14 at 08:20:32

sailorcolin wrote on 04/24/14 at 07:47:39:

WD wrote on 04/24/14 at 06:33:53:

You'd have been alright to ride. Neither of my bikes is fond of synthetic oil, yours may be just fine with it.

Rotella has sufficient chemicals (for now) for our antique engine design. If adding some zddp gives you piece of mind, use it too.

My 98 was run for several years on Castrol GTX 20W50 with no ill effects. On the recommendation of a Suzuki factory race team mechanic. The same one who had me break in the engine by "Ride it like you hate it and want to see it blow up"... No problems there either, valves haven't needed to be adjusted, ever.

What do you mean they don't like the synthetic?

Clutch slippage, missed shifts, leaks, oil that magically vanishes without visible leaks or blue smoke, noisy valve train to and including cam "whir", power loss, rough idle, excess engine "shake"... Some bikes do just fine with synthetic, some don't, and both of mine firmly fall in the don't category. Even Mobil 20W50 for air cooled V Twin bikes was a flop.

A lot of it is how I ride. I've been riding for just shy of 27 years, and still ride pretty aggressively, fairly frequently.

Most Savages will be fine with synthetic oils, some won't. Manufacturing tolerances is the big factor, the looser the bike was built, the heavier/thicker the oil you need. Combine that with Dixie highway temps, super slab speeds, and an aggressive rider and you get an empty sump in about 300 miles...

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sailorcolin

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #7 - 04/24/14 at 08:24:11

"WD wrote on 04/24/14 at 08:20:32:

sailorcolin wrote on 04/24/14 at 07:47:39:

WD wrote on 04/24/14 at 06:33:53:

You'd have been alright to ride. Neither of my bikes is fond of synthetic oil, yours may be just fine with it.

Rotella has sufficient chemicals (for now) for our antique engine design. If adding some zddp gives you piece of mind, use it too.

My 98 was run for several years on Castrol GTX 20W50 with no ill effects. On the recommendation of a Suzuki factory race team mechanic. The same one who had me break in the engine by "Ride it like you hate it and want to see it blow up"... No problems there either, valves haven't needed to be adjusted, ever.

What do you mean they don't like the synthetic?

Clutch slippage, missed shifts, leaks, oil that magically vanishes without visible leaks or blue smoke, noisy valve train to and including cam "whir", power loss, rough idle, excess engine "shake"... Some bikes do just fine with synthetic, some don't, and both of mine firmly fall in the don't category. Even Mobil 20W50 for air cooled V Twin bikes was a flop.

A lot of it is how I ride. I've been riding for just shy of 27 years, and still ride pretty aggressively, fairly frequently.

Most Savages will be fine with synthetic oils, some won't. Manufacturing tolerances is the big factor, the looser the bike was built, the heavier/thicker the oil you need. Combine that with Dixie highway temps, super slab speeds, and an aggressive rider and you get an empty sump in about 300 miles...

"

I have noticed a little more valve train noise, Is that ok?

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ZAR Serious Thumper Offline Rock this town! Rock it inside out! Posts: 961 Kentucky, USA Gender:	Re: Oil change with out ZDDP? Reply #8 - 04/24/14 at 18:55:07 11,000 of the my scooters 19,000+ miles have been with only Rotella T. No ZDDP added and like WD, I ride the hard. I have no clue what oil the PO's used.
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WD

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #9 - 04/24/14 at 22:22:38

I have yet to see a Savage that blew up due to T6. I have seen them destroyed by using oils designed for modern liquid cooled bikes, or using the wrong car oil. Your T6 is a heavy duty on road diesel engine oil. It is more than adequate as is for daily use. The Savage engine, cam and followers wise, is no more advanced than a 1980s Toyota 22r. The bottom end is straight out of England circa the mid 1950s, but with no sludge trap in the crankshaft.

My 98 with fresh synthetic oil went from Rosemark TN to Sturgis MS in a one day ride, and the sump took a full 2 quarts to top off when I got there. In under 200 miles... Ran Castrol GTX 20W50 (old formula, avoid the newer version) for the return trip after the Rally. Bike used a couple teaspoons the rest of the trip, including parade style riding in 100+ F ambient temps.

Once you are at full temp, the noise will settle down. That's normal, don't sweat it. Even on regular Rotella, the top end is noisy until at full operating temperature.

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shorty Serious Thumper Offline be careful out there gentlemen Posts: 547 southern NM Gender:	Re: Oil change with out ZDDP? Reply #10 - 04/25/14 at 04:04:46 I was using quality "car" oil of proper weight until 10k miles.. The fine folks here convinced me to use Rotella Diesel oil. I don't add anything but did notice the petroleum-based Rotella contains more additives than the full synthetic.. maybe not needed with synth ?
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sailorcolin

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #11 - 04/25/14 at 06:34:24

"WD wrote on 04/24/14 at 22:22:38:

I have yet to see a Savage that blew up due to T6. I have seen them destroyed by using oils designed for modern liquid cooled bikes, or using the wrong car oil. Your T6 is a heavy duty on road diesel engine oil. It is more than adequate as is for daily use. The Savage engine, cam and followers wise, is no more advanced than a 1980s Toyota 22r. The bottom end is straight out of England circa the mid 1950s, but with no sludge trap in the crankshaft.

My 98 with fresh synthetic oil went from Rosemark TN to Sturgis MS in a one day ride, and the sump took a full 2 quarts to top off when I got there. In under 200 miles... Ran Castrol GTX 20W50 (old formula, avoid the newer version) for the return trip after the Rally. Bike used a couple teaspoons the rest of the trip, including parade style riding in 100+ F ambient temps.

Once you are at full temp, the noise will settle down. That's normal, don't sweat it. Even on regular Rotella, the top end is noisy until at full operating temperature.

"

Thanks guys! Im new to the bike, but not new to bikes, or motors. So I greatly enjoy hearing wise words from vets like yourselves. I shale absorb all this information and make it useful!

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ToesNose Serious Thumper Offline Pardon me, do you have Hot Sauce? Posts: 1993 Mooresville, NC Gender:	Re: Oil change with out ZDDP? Reply #12 - 04/26/14 at 04:20:24 <----T6 no additives, no issues.
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pg Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 5273 In Transit	Re: Oil change with out ZDDP? Reply #13 - 04/26/14 at 15:03:01 ToesNose wrote on 04/26/14 at 04:20:24: <----T6 no additives, no issues. TN: Just curious, how many miles do you have? Thanks.
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Jack_650

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Re: Oil change with out ZDDP?
Reply #14 - 04/27/14 at 13:27:12

I got my 650 at about 9k miles. After reading here I run the Shell synth and have done a few 3k+ miles round trips in the summer from MN to FL and back and such. At over 27k I could use a longer cam chain adjuster but that's all I seem to see. I didn't have to add oil on any of those trips and I was pushing my 180 lbs. plus another 70+ pounds of camping gear etc. down the big roads at 65-70 in southern summer temps. What am I doing wrong?

Jack

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