SuzukiSavage.com - Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/poll)

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #15 - 01/03/14 at 09:26:51

And do you think any of the general "excess tubeless bead rubber that has no where to go in our rim" issues found so far on all of the modern car tires might also possibly apply to that particular BF Goodrich tire?

And, does that particular tire happen to come from the same Mexican plant (likely uses the same weak bead style) as the Radial TA?

I know you are going for a retro look, just don't get yourself hurt trying to do that.

Long lasting, cheaper rear tire ---- yeah, I've done that several times on a Savage. Finally learned how to get them on the rim at a reasonable enough seating pressure using MM's grease trick on that last little stubborn part.

Still, after doing all of it 3 times and tracking the costs I have to admit that a Metzler 880 H series tire can give roughly equivalent ownership cost per mile and equivalent overall mileage per tire (IF bought on sale with the mounting costs being equal).

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nickthe_human

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #16 - 01/03/14 at 15:38:55

Oldfeller, no, I haven't researched it that much. I'm sure you're right though on the manufacturing and beading. Like I said, I definitely want safe. Might have to reconsider a m/c tire for right now and at some point just lace a 16" on there to get the tire I want.

I appreciate all the responses and great info. It's why I love this site. Lots of helpful folk!

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pg Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 5273 In Transit	Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po Reply #17 - 01/03/14 at 16:38:35 I put metzler marathon 880s this year. It is an outstanding tire. I'm guessing the back tire should be good for at least 10K if not more. I highly recommend them. The only draw back is I had to take the saddle bag supports off and put in allen cap head screws. http://www.jpcycles.com/product/216-016#
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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #18 - 01/06/14 at 05:00:48

OK......maybe I will be banned to the TT Section as this post probably has lot of opinions and maybe not much documented proof......but I am curious about something. Why are car tires a better deal than motorycle tires?

1) My first guess would be the economy of scale and mass production allows the car tires to be cheaper. When making car tires you are going to be able to sell 100 times as many as you would a similar bike tire....so the design and tooling costs can be spread out over a larer number. Also a semi trailer delivers the car tires to the tire dealers 100 at a time - while motorcycle tires are sent by UPS or FedEx one a pair at a time when ordered by the customer.

2) As to why car tires last longer - they have to be made of a harder rubber which may affect traction. After chasing Oldfellor around the Dragon I am not sure that this thought has any merit.....but if the car tire lasts longer it can't be the same softness as a motocrycle tire.

3) Car tires are designed to keep the tread square to the pavement as the car never banks over.......while motorcycles bank and corner on the side of the tire. The car tire generally has a square shoulder while a motorcycle has a rounded shoulder - and there may be differences in the tires carcass design to account for this . Also car tire treads seem to be much more linear with grooves going around the circumference - while motorcycle tires tend to have tread that is more diaganol to help prevent tread squirm when the tire is banked over and accelerating or braking.

I have seen that car tires can work on a bike and provide a lot of mileage affordably - and the Honda Gold Wing and ST1100/1300 riders that use car tires have racked up lots and lots of road miles using them. I am also convinced that knowledgable engineers are working on the design of motorcycle tires are are taking the technology as far as they can to make the best tires available. I have seen advertisements for sport bike tires that have a hard compound down the center of the tread and softer compounds on the edges, dual sport and adventure rider tires that are good street tires and good dirt tires, touring tires that offer high mileage and good wet weather traction, and trials tires that offer incredible traction. Why are they not making motorcycle tires that serve our needs......and cause us to go looking at car tires......Why can't we find a tire that is affordable, offers good mileage, good traction, looks good, and is made for a motorycle?

I guess that for some it is the Vintage look and getting a tread that looks right on their bobber is more important than aggressive cornering. For others it is the desire to get long mileage out of an affordable tire. Those riders that rack up a lot of miles don't want to have to buy a set of tires every year.....however it is generally understood that a tire more than 4 years old has begun to age and deteriorate, and the rubber is turning hard and losing a large amount of it's ability to stick to the pavement. (I know that the Michelins we had on my wife's car turned to stone after 4 years, and the tires on my 2002 Avalanche are original 12 year old tires and they are absolutely scary to drive in the rain).

OK.....that is my rant.......I like my motorycle tires that are mounted on my motorycle. The only thing I regret is that the Sport Bike tires that offer superior cornering traction are made in 17" rim sizes and won't fit my Cafe' bike. The best I can do is find sport touring tires or tires made for vintage street bikes.

Sorry if I have offended anyone.....I just am not tempted to go over to the dark side.

Dave

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po Reply #19 - 01/06/14 at 08:16:53 you left out 1 important factor... to most people, m/c's are toys. you naturally spend more on toys just cuz.
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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #20 - 01/06/14 at 09:37:46

Dave wrote on 01/06/14 at 05:00:48:

Why are car tires a better deal than motorycle tires?

1) My first guess would be the economy of scale and mass production allows the car tires to be cheaper.
Yep,.. mass production, and volume shipping

2) As to why car tires last longer - they have to be made of a harder rubber which may affect traction.
3) Car tires are designed to keep the tread square to the pavement as the car never banks over.......while motorcycles bank and corner on the side of the tire. The car tire generally has a square shoulder while a motorcycle has a rounded shoulder - and there may be differences in the tires carcass design to account for this .
Yep,... car tires are made to ride with a flat contact patch.. this wears the tire evenly across the entire tread... so they last longer.. on a car... not so much on a bike because the bike still leans, even with a car tire...(you won't get the same tread life on a bike as a car even with the same tire

Sorry if I have offended anyone.....I just am not tempted to go over to the dark side.
Not hardly,.. yer' a rank amateur at offending people... Grin

...

Dave

Note.. one thing I've noticed... with the Metzler's...
They really do last... but, why?...
They have more tread... This is good for more miles,.. but, it adds unsprung weight...and because most riders wear out the center faster than the sides,.. the tires get a flat spot in the center as the tire wears... (this happens with all bike tires, but will be more pronounced with a thicker tread tire)...(this will eventually effect cornering traction,.. as the contact patch is reduced on the sides of the tire)...
It may not matter,... depending on your riding style... but, it's something to consider...
Metzlers are good for high mileage, highway riders... this is not generally what our bikes are built for...
JMHO... Tongue

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #21 - 01/06/14 at 10:57:14

Depending on riding style, to me, thats the top consideration, Anyone who rides long distances a lot, they have a reason to go Dark, people like me who wear tires out from hard riding also have a Motivator to save $$$, BUT, then the question comes into play, WILL the Darkside tire DO what I wanna do & not dump me in a corner? Will it change the handling enough to make cornering hard? Rowboat makes a good point, contact patch in a corner would seem to go down.. Thats gotta be a lousy idea..

Now,, A guy Could mount the tire on a rim & put the thing on stands, standing up & easy to spin & work the edges over with a grinder. Car tires have good tread on the edges. Think it over, measure, run tape around the tire to mark the line, Take a rod, get some white out, stand the rod up, decide where the grinding needs to stop, spin the tire & lay the rod over, mark the tire w/ the white out,, then grind between the lines. Holding the grinder at the right angle spins the tire & moves the rubber off.. This would be a tedious, nasty process.. But a tire that runs20,000 miles instead of 5? Wooot! Especially when ya count the 3 times there would be no need to spend $30.00 to mount a new tire & the 3 times thered be no need to drop the $$$ for a new tire.
If I was REally sold on the Savage & I rode enough that I Felt the bite of rear tire costs, Id really look at this. Even if it meant some swingarm mods. I wouldnt Want to go much taller on the tire, tho, cuz the Dunlop pretty much corrects the speedo, & I wouldnt wanna up the gearing on it too much. Much as Id like the added top end / lower rpm thing, I just wouldnt wanna give away the acceleration coming outta the corners.

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old_rider

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #22 - 01/06/14 at 11:00:24

Well.... down here in straight flat road central, tons of folks prefer the dark side because they wear a 1 1/2" wide "chicken strip" in the MC tires in about the first 100 miles of a new tires life.
Its a gimme down here, so I don't find it so out of whack, down here it would for sure save you money to go to the darkside.
I used to work like 5 miles or less from work here and it was literally a straight, flat road. There are like maybe two round-a-bouts in town and only 3 curved roads I know of, everything else is 90 degree intersections and straight to the next street.

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EJID

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #23 - 01/06/14 at 14:36:20

old_rider wrote on 01/06/14 at 11:00:24:

Well.... down here in straight flat road central, tons of folks prefer the dark side because they wear a 1 1/2" wide "chicken strip" in the MC tires in about the first 100 miles of a new tires life.
Its a gimme down here, so I don't find it so out of whack, down here it would for sure save you money to go to the darkside.
I used to work like 5 miles or less from work here and it was literally a straight, flat road. There are like maybe two round-a-bouts in town and only 3 curved roads I know of, everything else is 90 degree intersections and straight to the next street.

Reading that makes me feel sorry for your riding area old_rider :'( I hope you at least have some good curves not too far for a day ride.

Back on topic...I haven't ever considered a darkside tire, and probably never will, but I remember this video posted by RidgeRunner13 of his tire on his Vstar 950...love watching the angle during the corners Cool

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1346696164/5#5
http://www.youtube.com/embed/BXasxVxsza8

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #24 - 01/06/14 at 15:06:59

Wow... on the youtube vid he only had like 1/2" on the turns actually touching... that on a wet road might be tricky.
Still, if you slowly turn, it could be ok and on flat roads its a comfortable ride with less drifting.

And that vid looks like down here on the beach strip....after lots of the houses got washed into the bay when Hurricane Ivan hit.

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: Which Darkside Tire? (Info/stock comparison/po
Reply #25 - 01/06/14 at 15:35:18

Let's see, I was one of the first main proponents for car tires on the back of the Savage. I even posted the how to's on how to mount it and make room for it.

All this stuff about "square tread" really only applies to the Firestone tire as it is the only square shouldered antique tread pattern out there that you can buy now days. All the rest of the current crop of suitable car tires has radiused corners much on the same effective radius as one half of a bike tire.

Hard rubber vs soft rubber, I have taken both to the Dragon and tortured the same year after year. I PREFER THE HARD RUBBER TIRES .... because they take DRAGON abuse much much better.

Shame is I can't find one in our old VW heritage styles in hard rubber any more unless I import it at over $100 per tire (and believe me, I buy a cheap VW tire for like $35-$55 when I go after a new one).

Current tire is a Nexxen sports car tire and it is beautiful for grip, and conformance and high speed and braking and wet and road noise and everything else except ABUSE RESISTANCE.

I was tracking at the head of the pack during the last mileage war until I took the new Nexxen to the Dragon and went playing hard with Dave and the boys last time out. I tore so much rubber off that rear tire doing late braking that went from first to 4th place in the wear war rankings (with 2 Metzlers ahead of me now).

Hey, it is what it is ...

So yeah, if you can buy your Metzler 880 H Marathon for $55 or $60 on a super sale, then go for it, you will get the best of both worlds.

However, last time I looked Metzlers go for twice that amount or more unless you catch some sort of overage inventory purge sale in which case they can cost you a good bit fewer coins.

The single most dangerous part of going dark side on a Savage is MOUNTING THE TIRE, so if you want to try one study up on the mounting posts that I did and do NOT GO PAST 60 PSI without finding out what is holding that bead up. If it is turkey fat (excess tubeless sealing rubber) cut it off with your turkey slicer and convert your rim style back to an old tube style bead -- that is what your rim takes naturally.

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