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Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’ (Read 1702 times)
justin_o_guy2
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #165 - 07/20/14 at 16:54:50
 
Show me,IN the Constitution,a reference to Separation of church and state.
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #166 - 07/20/14 at 17:25:58
 
"Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #167 - 07/20/14 at 17:51:34
 
And do you read that to say No Christmas stuff at school?
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #168 - 07/20/14 at 18:57:30
 
My guess is that you'd disagree with Jefferson's opinion of religion's place in state schools and colleges, as he demonstrated through his policy at the University of Virginia:

In spite of substantial pressure, he refused to hire a minister to teach religion at the new university, arguing that the school was state-owned and therefore could not constitutionally promote or endorse any particular religion. Jefferson argued that religion should instead be taught as part of philosophy and ethics. Under pressure he accepted the notion that religious services might occur in a public building on the university's grounds, but insisted that such services be unofficial and access to buildings be pursuant to "impartial regulation," or open to all religious services and other public speakers.
www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Jefferson_Thomas_and_Religion

Also, Jefferson expressed to John Adams his hope that Americans would quit believing in the Christmas magic show.[1]

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." ~Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I myself am a Christian such as Jefferson was,[2] not believing in the silly supernaturalist "heathen mysteries"[3] that the "imposter" Paul[4] cut-and-pasted from the time's pagan dying-rising solar-deity religions onto Jesus' ethical teachings.

The church closest to Jefferson's beliefs is the Unitarians.[5]  I'd join one myself, except they'd hound me out of the congregation because I, like Jefferson, believe strongly in the Second Amendment.

So on Sunday I stay home, rather agnostically[6], and read my Jefferson Bible, in which he edited out the biblical bullshit (well, ok, he called it "dunghills."[7]) It's wonderfully short.


[1] R. Lee Ermey's term for Christmas services in Full Metal Jacket www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdytWbl9sh8

[2] "To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, May 21, 1803

[3a] "...I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel, and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what it’s Author never said nor saw. they have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man..." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816

[3b] Regarding what Jefferson meant by supernaturalist "Platonists," see: Gregory Lawrence Knittel (1993) The Euthanasia of Platonic Christianity: Thomas Jefferson, Plato, Religion and Human Freedom. San Jose State University. scholarworks.sjsu.edu/etd_theses/689/

[4] "Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Corypheus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." ~Thomas Jefferson (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)

[5] "I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its conscience to neither kings or priests, the genuine doctrine of only one God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

[6]  "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

[7] "The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
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RatdogWillie
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #169 - 07/20/14 at 19:13:11
 
raydawg wrote on 07/20/14 at 12:46:52:
Your reply judges me as you retreat behind the guise of humor, then return full force with another revealing assumption with: I make no apologies for being concerned about one of the greatest issues that concern and affect us.
Us, what, an absolute, everyone.......you state this as fact?

Absolute Fact! Zionism affects us….including you…whether you are presently aware of it or not.

Zionism is often confused with Judaism.... a religion of many centuries. Zionism is a 117 years old political entity that pretends that it is merely for Jewish folks to have a land of their own .... well now they do (Jews and those that claim to be and are not). But the Zionists want more.... very possibly eventually control the world…. Most certainly the worlds economies which it attempts to control thru the use of usury and debt, and monetary funds such as the IMF and federal Reserve. Opinion is controlled thru media and the education system. All though it may be difficult to understand, wars are most often fought for the benefit of Zionists.

Rather that write many words here, I offer a well worthwhile read at this link:
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2013/05/the-zionist-jew-world-order.html

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #170 - 07/20/14 at 19:47:19
 
The State has no business TEACHING religion. 1st Amendment makes certain we can exercise Faith,anywhere,as anytime.
No problem with a religious play on public property.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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raydawg
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #171 - 07/20/14 at 20:07:11
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/20/14 at 19:47:19:
The State has no business TEACHING religion. 1st Amendment makes certain we can exercise Faith,anywhere,as anytime.
No problem with a religious play on public property.


JOG.......this issue is still being fought in the courts. I will guess it will be for some time to come too.
Bet most folk would just let people live and express their lives as they see fit, but you have the activist on each ends of the spectrum who feel their views and beliefs are trump......
Trying to drag everyone else into the fray.

I think its fair to say its more about them, than it is the issue they fight over.
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raydawg
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #172 - 07/20/14 at 20:12:46
 
RatdogWillie wrote on 07/20/14 at 19:13:11:
raydawg wrote on 07/20/14 at 12:46:52:
Your reply judges me as you retreat behind the guise of humor, then return full force with another revealing assumption with: I make no apologies for being concerned about one of the greatest issues that concern and affect us.
Us, what, an absolute, everyone.......you state this as fact?

Absolute Fact! Zionism affects us….including you…whether you are presently aware of it or not.

Zionism is often confused with Judaism.... a religion of many centuries. Zionism is a 117 years old political entity that pretends that it is merely for Jewish folks to have a land of their own .... well now they do (Jews and those that claim to be and are not). But the Zionists want more.... very possibly eventually control the world…. Most certainly the worlds economies which it attempts to control thru the use of usury and debt, and monetary funds such as the IMF and federal Reserve. Opinion is controlled thru media and the education system. All though it may be difficult to understand, wars are most often fought for the benefit of Zionists.

Rather that write many words here, I offer a well worthwhile read at this link:
http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2013/05/the-zionist-jew-world-order.html



Well I guess if my neighbors wife gains 5 more pounds it will effect me too, as the world will spin slower  Tongue

Go ahead, do what you feel you need to do.......
I'll just set back and live each day on its own accord.
I like things simple, less energy needed to get er done.
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #173 - 07/21/14 at 04:09:41
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/20/14 at 19:47:19:
No problem with a religious play on public property.


That is "respecting an establishment of religion" which the First Amendment prohibits.

Remember, we have a beautiful monument in our nation's capital dedicated to hostility towards the clergy's schemes of religious evangelism, which Jefferson regarded as tyranny.

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me..." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #174 - 07/21/14 at 06:49:04
 
BalingWire wrote on 07/21/14 at 04:09:41:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/20/14 at 19:47:19:
No problem with a religious play on public property.


That is "respecting an establishment of religion" which the First Amendment prohibits.
NO,IT'S NOT..As long as Anyone can do whatever they want.

WELL you may be right.. it does appear to be a ruling that Violates the rights..so,yes.

Remember, we have a beautiful monument in our nation's capital dedicated to hostility towards the clergy's schemes of religious evangelism, which Jefferson regarded as tyranny.

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me..." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800

http://i59.tinypic.com/23uu5v9.jpg

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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #175 - 07/21/14 at 07:58:50
 
Quote:
As long as Anyone can do whatever they want.


Anarchy is another concept Jefferson opposed.

"Let this be the distinctive mark of an American that in cases of commotion, he enlists himself under no man's banner, inquires for no man's name, but repairs to the standard of the laws.  Do this, and you need never fear anarchy or tyranny.  Your government will be perpetual." ~Thomas Jefferson, Manuscript, c. 1801

"The voluntary support of laws, formed by persons of their own choice, distinguishes peculiarly the minds capable of self-government. The contrary spirit is anarchy, which of necessity produces despotism." ~Thomas Jefferson, to Philadelphia Citizens, 1809

"Our falling into anarchy would decide forever the destinies of mankind, and seal the political heresy that man is incapable of self-government." ~Thomas Jefferson, to John Hollins, 1811
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #176 - 07/21/14 at 08:59:35
 
Oh sh1t,,REALLY? I am offended that you choose to read what I said and pretend I support anarchy. You can't see what I was saying? Not JUST one Religion can use public property..see?
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #177 - 07/21/14 at 11:57:57
 
Quote:
Not JUST one Religion can use public property..see?


As long as you're cool with other religions using the public's tax money to push their religious agenda and evangelize other people's children.  However, it never works that way in real life. Adherents the dominant religion allow only one religion to push its agenda on public property without a huge commotion when another religion tries to do the same school evangelism.

Fundamentalist Christianity has the same agenda as Fundamentalist Islam: take over the thinking of the whole world, just like the fundies have already taken over the Republican Party, as one of the few sane voices in the Republican Party admits:

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy." ~U.S. Representative Christopher Shays, R-CT, (New York Times 3/23/05)

Republican theocrats despise Jefferson's "wall of separation" exegesis of the First Amendment as much as Democrat Maoists despise Jefferson's "let your gun therefore be the constant companion" view of the Second Amendment.

I stand with Jefferson's views on the two beginning Amendments within our Bill of Rights.  Keep your religion tucked in your pants, and keep a revolver tucked in your pants too.

P.S. And there's no need to flaunt either in public.

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #178 - 07/21/14 at 13:21:31
 
You jackass,I said attendance was mandatory?You're either confused or intellectually dishonest.
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Re: Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’
Reply #179 - 07/21/14 at 14:47:01
 
Quote:
I said attendance was mandatory?


You conjure a new issue which I never previously addressed.  But I will, now—in the context of whether "school prayer" is voluntary or mandatory.

The courts have decided time after time that using public facilities is interpreted as making that religion to some degree "mandatory."

Which is why we have the court decision Engel v. Vitale, in which "the Court rejected the defendant's arguments that people are not asked to respect any specific established religion; and that the prayer is voluntary." /wiki/Engel_v._Vitale  Also see /wiki/Wallace_v._Jaffree

Quote:
You jackass


"Then forgive me." ~Bill Hicks


Perfect reaction to angry Christians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTX5dTCCOj4

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." ~verses 14 and 15, chapter 3, The Jefferson Bible

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." ~verses 14 and 15, chapter 7, The Jefferson Bible

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"The satisfactions of manifesting oneself concretely in the world through manual competence have been known to make a man quiet and easy."
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