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Reloading for the rest of us (Read 488 times)
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #45 - 11/04/13 at 06:53:45
 

Got to separate "hunting" from "self-protection" from "running battles".  Each has its own requirements for equipment.

Being old now, I don't think I'd be joining any running battles, instead I'd avoid those situations as best as I could.

Self protection for me has declined now to just protecting a distributed family.   Since they will have to protect themselves where they are I do that by providing "stuff" and teaching and training.

Hurricane Katrina has taught us that widespread need due to disaster can bring out the guns fairly readily.   A terrorist attack with the somewhat technically available EMP pulse weapons could give us a very widespread disaster of some considerable size that would be VERY slow to recover from.

Thinking about the large proliferation of semi-auto .223 rifles makes you ponder exactly what the other person has for a mindset.  

I went to the Gander Mountain grand opening of their new "survival store" -- they had floor displays of 50 BMG and some smaller cans full of 7.62 Nato and 223 that was deemed "suitable for burial".   The domestic guns industry is ready now to equip you for Armageddon or any of the lesser conflagrations you might imagine.

I personally am equipped for hunting and personal protection.   Somebody spraying 20 round clips of .223 at me from close range is likely to win anyway whether they can actually shoot or not (unless I shoot my buckshot equipped pump shotgun first that is).

Folks, you got people buying battle plate kelvar outfits to go along with their M17a clones -- these are the ones who really intend to "win".


===================


Now, back to reloading.

You need primers and powder and bullets.   You have the brass from what you bought initially (or like me you buy the brass miltary surplus just as cheap as you can get it).

Let me expand your thinking a bit about brass.   Brass is what it is, and what it can become.

7.62 Nato is flexible brass.  It is .308, 260 Rem, 7mm08, .243 Win each one naturally with just a trip through the sizing die.  And, in a pinch it can become short-necked cast bullet versions of 8x57, 6.5x55, 7x57 etc. etc.

Having some brass around is a good thing as the price of brass the metal is headed for the moon over time.   Buying some extra brass now when it is relatively cheap might be a good idea.

And here is the source that is the best $$$ right now for same year head stamp 7.62 SBS brass (This is Santa Barbra Systems brass, a division of General Dynamics, i.e. Spanish built brass under US contract).    

The Lake City brass costs more and it is mixed head stamp from all years, but folks claim it is "better brass" than the SBS.    Might be, but for cast bullet shooting I think the SBS will do fine.  

If you want Lake City, go to GIbrass.com where you can get it a little cheaper along with your bulk powder and bullets.

Big-Brass.com





================



Got my 500 pieces of Big Brass 7.62x51 SBS in today.  It came in cleaned, tumbled and ready to deprime and resize all packed out neat & clean in a heavy plastic bag.  

All of it was the same head stamp and it looked undamaged as far as rims tears and side dings go -- the brass was all fired in machine guns that were apparently in good shape with no chamber burs or "fluting" style damage.   None of it was fired in a FAL, all appears to be SAW or M60 machine gun fired brass.

Machine guns are hard on brass since a MG can offer a "variable length chamber" according to which gun it was fired in and where that barrel and latch system sat in its overall wear life.  

Expansion and OAL of fired brass varies a lot with 20-30% of the brass being expanded too far in web area diameter & head to shoulder length, so all this machine gun brass needs to be completely resized (100% inserted until the shell holder FIRMLY seats on the die body).  This crushes out all length variation and diameter variation back to spec and moves all the variation out so it is stated as neck length variation.

Then trim all the cases to length, then bevel inside of the mouth, then deburr the mouth of the primer pocket.

Once fired machine gun brass is cheap, but it MUST be completely reprocessed correctly or you will occasionally hit an over length case, one that simply got stretched a lot more than the rest of them did.  

Remember, reprocessing moves the shoulder back on the stretched cases and all that extra length then moves up to the neck area, increasing that trim case length noticeably on any stretched cases.

Any cases that show up being REALLY a lot longer in the neck than the rest after full length sizing should be tossed out as there is actually a stretch mark down inside the case where the case wall actually yielded and thinned out to make up all that extra neck length.

Loss during processing is generally in the range of a percent or three -- and it is always smart to let brass sit for a day or three between any processing steps that compress or expand the brass -- brass will work hardens then it air anneals over several days of rest.    Full flame anneal needs to be done about every 4-5 reloadings as neck cracks will begin to develop if this step is not done.

You must lubricate your brass before depriming/resizing is done.  Cooking oil is fine for case lubing, just go very very lightly if you are bulk lubing by the drip and stir method.   A very very slightly oily feel is what you are after, not a full coating of oil.
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« Last Edit: 11/04/13 at 20:33:39 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #46 - 11/04/13 at 07:27:42
 
 
Bullets are the largest cost portion of any reload.


The low cost "Russian" bullets coming into the country now may be copper plated soft steel, even the soft point cheap stuff that you see may be copper plated soft steel.    Remember to ASK before ordering.

Privi Partisan (Croatia) is all copper, so make an exception for them in your thinking as they are being bulk packed out by Graf & Sons right now and are the least cost non-steel hunting bullets on the planet right now.

Buying bullets hurts a lot now because BULLETS are in the shortest supply of all reloading components.   Bullets are getting premium plus prices right now no matter what the source.

Pulled bullets and "seconds" are also available occasionally.   Manufacturers still screw up and have to pull down lots of ammo and the bullets do get sold off by folks like Rocky Mountain Reloading.   Seconds get sold off by Graf & Sons and Midsouth Shooters Supply.   Pulled bullet appearance will vary according to what it took to pull the ammo down.


============


Cast Bullets


In certain calibers properly constructed cast bullets work as well as a jacketed slug ever did.  30-30 is a cast bullet natural caliber, as is all of the .38 and.44 and .45 pistol based stuff.  .308 based stuff can do cast at reduced velocity, but when you go below .308 things get a little twitchy accuracy wise as the acceleration and twist of the smaller calibers work against them, as do the long bullet lengths for the smaller diameters.

Why cast?   Cast bullets in appropriate calibers work VERY well and are at the "less than a nickel" cost level (includes metal cost and a gas check).  Plus, many pistol based calibers can shoot a bevel based cast bullet with no gas check at full velocity with acceptable accuracy.


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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #47 - 11/04/13 at 09:25:47
 
I didn't realize that 30-30 was cast friendly... I might have to look into that.

My reload velocitys:

.38 target  158 semiwadcutter- 780 to 820
.38    - 162gr 800 to 900
.357  - 162gr  1300 - 1400
.357 180gr keith  1100

(note that most 9mm achive over 1500 fps and upwards of 1700) 9mm IS .38 caliber but the bullets are lighter ( 115 to 140 grain)
Notice my fastest round is slower than a 9mm.

Side note(I have a custom, one of a kind barrel for my revo... with a reduced twist rate... just for 180 gr bullets)


So far I have not dabbled in gas checks, though I undstand you can buy a gas check punch .. and make your own ( even from AL drink cans!)
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #48 - 11/04/13 at 17:38:39
 

9x19. going 1,500 to 1,700 fps ???

9mm Sig mebbe, using very light slugs.

I own couple of pistols that can get up into that speed range .... but certainly they aren't 9x19 parabellums.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #49 - 11/04/13 at 22:21:10
 
Hay OldFeller

Doin't forget about necking up to .358 on the 308 brass  then you could use cast (GC.) bullets and still load close to max loads.  Not sure rifles are still being made in .358 Win. ?    My .357 rifle gets close to max speed with 125gr projectiles.  +- 2,100 fps.


By time those "Spray and Pray" types get close enouth to hit anything a good 10-22( w/30rd clip )will out do them couse of recoil managment !  or like you sugested buck shot headed down range at 12 to 20ct. at a time.  Tongue

Pine ,
I've been loading 30-30 for a long time.  The 170 gr GC. at 2200 fps is full power.   And the hard lead is "Car Killer" stuff.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #50 - 11/04/13 at 22:46:10
 
Pine wrote on 11/04/13 at 09:25:47:
I didn't realize that 30-30 was cast friendly... I might have to look into that.


Originally loaded in 160gr, 165gr, 180gr and 185gr pure soft lead round nose. My 1967 M6702 Winchester saddle ring carbine actually requires the early 180gr lrn for optimal accuracy. With 150 or 170gr jacketed flat nose, I could stand on the porch, and miss you under the poplar in the front yard. You've been to my place, that's what, all of 45 feet? The same gun, with 180gr lead round nose (lrn) has rung steel at over 300 yards, offhand, open iron sights.

Give a Winchester the real loading. Save the sissy crap for Marlin 336s.  Wink
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #51 - 11/05/13 at 03:52:15
 

I built up a rusty Marlin 30AS pawnshop 30-30 rifle to use the original Fat 30 cast bullet, a 193 grain flat nose lead slug that was designed & built on Castboolits back in my lead slinging days.  Works well, hits velocities that were very much the original specs on the 30-30 back when it was the very First Civilian Small Bore Smokeless American Cartridge.

The 30-30 was ground-breaking, a tiny smokeless powder cartridge built specifically for the high-wall Winchester lever action (THE American rife style at the time).   It was a paragon of Speed and Power, it was advertised for killing any game in North America.  And it did.  And it has, for over 100 years.   Yep, elk & moose & bears too.

Remember, 250 yards was a long long way to hunt with a 45-70 back in the day due to the trajectory -- unless you had a yardage calibrated tang peep sight that is.  

A 30-30 shot FLAT back in that "first smokeless powder world", flat out to 125 yards, which meant it shot flat for most normal hunting done at the time.   Beyond 125 yards you needed to use elevation, or what most hunters taught their kids was to hold even with the deer's back for the long shots (or to sneak in closer, if you could really hunt that is).

The rusty Marlin 30AS rifle cleaned up pretty good and it shot the Fat 30 so well that I scoped the old thing with a cheap old Simmons scope and then (now that I could see the target better) it shot that 193 grain bullet so well I KEPT it.  

Right now it is still my most accurate cast bullet rifle, which is was unexpected.   It certainly has the worst trigger of any of my guns, by far.



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« Last Edit: 11/05/13 at 10:27:17 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #52 - 11/05/13 at 07:32:28
 
Must be something to this :

Right now it is still my most accurate cast bullet rifle, which is was unexpected.  

I shoot 170 gr and/or 115 gr.  with iron peep sight .   Either bullet is just as accurate as "Iron Sight" can be.   Both run 2200fps ,  and the rifle send them both to the same place with-out adjusting the sight for the pecturlar bulllet.   I've got a pre WWII Marlin modle 36 (not 336) just (M-36)  with 24" barrel , the safe is half kock only from back in the day when the clumsy and stupid were allowed to take themselfs out of the jean-pool .  Grin

I'm going to get it out and play with it today !  Smiley
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #53 - 11/05/13 at 07:47:58
 
WD wrote on 11/04/13 at 22:46:10:
Pine wrote on 11/04/13 at 09:25:47:
I didn't realize that 30-30 was cast friendly... I might have to look into that.


Originally loaded in 160gr, 165gr, 180gr and 185gr pure soft lead round nose. My 1967 M6702 Winchester saddle ring carbine actually requires the early 180gr lrn for optimal accuracy. With 150 or 170gr jacketed flat nose, I could stand on the porch, and miss you under the poplar in the front yard. You've been to my place, that's what, all of 45 feet? The same gun, with 180gr lead round nose (lrn) has rung steel at over 300 yards, offhand, open iron sights.

Give a Winchester the real loading. Save the sissy crap for Marlin 336s.  Wink

yeah seems to be my experience... just does not like lighter stuff.  never tried 300 yrds though.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #54 - 11/05/13 at 10:14:52
 

I tried cast at 250 yards once with the flat tipped Fat 30 intending to see if the "hold with the top of the deer" trick would actually work for the gun.  Bullets grouped 24 inches below point of aim, group was an OK 8 1/2 inches and one clipped a sapling past the target and blew through 4 inches of wood with no problems.   Enough energy was there, but the ballistics were too too curvy to suit me.   The gun is a 150 yard gun for normal hunting.

Cast is cheap to shoot, but it is distance limited unless you actually go shoot over the field and the exact distance you plan to shoot.   I knew one old man who hunted his own fields with cast from a blind up in the loft of an old barn.   He had signs up on fence posts telling him how many mil dots to hold over for that particular distance.

He also believed that gun temperature played a bigger part in his long distance shooting than is commonly held.   Propellants do operate at slightly different rates due to temperature, enough to shift his big assed long distance curves up and down if he didn't pay attention to it.    

He got to the point he carried his rounds inside his jacket and he loaded them just before he took the shot.


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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #55 - 11/05/13 at 10:38:45
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 11/04/13 at 17:38:39:
9x19. going 1,500 to 1,700 fps ???

9mm Sig mebbe, using very light slugs.

I own couple of pistols that can get up into that speed range .... but certainly they aren't 9x19 parabellums.


Peopel get up there when relaoding (mm Major for IPSC/USPSA but the guns are custom built with Ports etc.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #56 - 11/05/13 at 12:22:37
 
I know cold air is thicker than warm air and so the bullets slow down quicker "when the temperature drops so do the bullets" ,  Wink

also

cold powder burns slower .   Cold barrels are smaller in dia. too .   go figure !  Cheesy
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #57 - 11/06/13 at 10:15:28
 

Cast bullet lubes are stickier and more viscous the colder it gets too.

There are lots of real "physics type" reasons that sticking your cast rounds inside your jacket to keep them warm is a smart thing to in the winter time to control that variable rainbow a little better.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #58 - 11/06/13 at 19:57:02
 
dinsdale wrote on 11/05/13 at 10:38:45:
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 11/04/13 at 17:38:39:
9x19. going 1,500 to 1,700 fps ???

9mm Sig mebbe, using very light slugs.

I own couple of pistols that can get up into that speed range .... but certainly they aren't 9x19 parabellums.


Peopel get up there when relaoding (mm Major for IPSC/USPSA but the guns are custom built with Ports etc.


Smiley

OK, nice thought but not really real at the speeds quoted.   Here are some 9mm Major loads run out of extended (recoil ported) pistol barrels.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740&hl=major

Posted 04 April 2004 - 11:58 AM
Here are the latest loads that I have Chronoed as I develop loads for 9Major.

Barrel: Bar-Sto Precision Length: 4.25

Bullet 124 Jacketed Hollow Point Zero 0.355
Case: Winchester
COAL: 1.145

Powder Hodgdon Longshot

Chg High Low SD CV MAD CV ES Average PF
6.6 1287.2 1261.8 9.60 0.75% 8.00 0.62% 25.4 1273.4 157.90
6.8 1349.5 1302.9 16.90 1.27% 13.60 1.02% 46.6 1323.4 164.10
7.0 1361.7 1321.6 11.90 0.88% 9.00 0.67% 40.1 1338.4 165.96
7.2 1372.9 1326.9 17.90 1.32% 15.00 1.10% 46 1354.7 167.98
7.4 1396.8 1377.4 6.70 0.48% 5.60 0.40% 19.4 1387.9 172.10

Powder IMR 7625

Chg High Low SD CV MAD CV ES Average PF

5.0 1181.6 1136.5 13.50 1.17% 8.50 0.73% 45.1 1148.9 142.46
5.2 1184.3 1154.5 10.70 0.91% 29.80 0.76% 29.8 1170.9 145.19
5.4 1203.9 1180.2 8.90 0.74% 8.00 0.67% 23.7 1193.1 147.94
5.6 1241.6 1221.9 6.50 0.52% 5.40 0.43% 19.7 1230 152.52
5.8 1275.1 1224.9 14.70 1.17% 10.90 0.87% 50.2 1250.2 155.02
6.0 1297.8 1233.6 21.30 1.68% 17.00 1.34% 64.2 1265.6 156.93


Powder Vihtavuori N350

Chg High Low SD CV MAD CV ES Average PF

6.0 1244.7 1201.7 12.80 1.04% 10.50 0.85% 43 1222.1 151.54
6.2 1272.8 1224.5 14.40 1.15% 10.10 0.81% 48.3 1241.6 153.96
6.4 1305.6 1248.2 14.60 1.14% 9.70 0.75% 57.4 1277.3 158.39
6.6 1340.9 1297.0 12.60 0.95% 9.20 0.69% 43.9 1320.7 163.77
6.8 1383.8 1339.3 13.20 0.97% 9.80 0.72% 44.5 1357.2 168.29
7.0 1378.8 1342.4 10.90 0.80% 9.20 0.67% 33.4 1362.5 168.95
7.3 1402.0 1363.3 14.10 1.01% 10.80 0.77% 38.7 1385.7 171.83

UPDATE: Add Ramshot True Blue data
4-18-2004 Added loads from 7.4 - 8.0

6.2 1119.6 1089.3 9.4 0.85% 6.9 0.62% 1100.5 30.3 136.5
6.4 1145.4 1114.2 9.9 0.87% 7.0 0.62% 1137.2 31.2 141.0
6.6 1194.7 1157.0 11.5 0.98% 8.3 0.71% 1171.8 37.7 145.3
6.8 1204.0 1188.1 5.9 0.49% 4.6 0.38% 1197.4 15.9 148.5
7.0 1284.5 1213.9 20.4 1.66% 13.8 1.12% 1234.2 70.6 153.0
7.2 1288.8 1231.7 17.7 1.41% 14.0 1.11% 1259.3 57.1 156.2
7.4 1294.0 1266.0 10.5 0.82% 8.3 0.65% 1278.3 28.0 158.5
7.6 1329.0 1303.0 8.4 0.64% 6.7 0.51% 1314.0 26.0 162.9
7.8 1387.0 1356.0 11.1 0.81% 8.7 0.63% 1369.5 31.0 169.8
8.0 1398.0 1382.0 5.8 0.42% 4.3 0.31% 1390.7 16.0 172.4

UPDATED 7625 INFO Added 6/25/05
Note: The bullet and OAL are only for the following two 7625 loads only.

Bullet Hornady 124gr FMJ encapsulated
Cartridge OAL 1.178

Average Avg PF Hi Low AvDv StDev
7.0gr 1342.56 166.5 1355 1322 8.05 11.02
7.2gr 1372.6 170.2 1392 1358 10.72 12.75



Will Update this as I get more info

Alan Meek Smiley



I also checked to see if carbine length barrels could add in the 200-400 fps difference.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=105472

These are the folks who load 9mm hot and they are saying 1450 fps is about the top end before carbine gun damage begins.   Remember, most 9mm carbines are simple blow back actions and if you go too hot the chamber area can crack or the slide mass begins to get some peening damage/breakage at the slam stop point.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387299

Here are some lever action folks (the strongest action type for 9mm) talking about "1,700 fps" as being an un-doable thing unless case pressures are run up to OVER the 50,000 psi level.  


======================


http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

Hot loads for the .357 Magnum in lever guns DO get up to range you are talking about.   Perhaps you just remembered reading about the .357 magnum in a good strong lever action.

A .357 lever action Rossi in stainless steel is a gun that is noted as a very good high pressure high velocity brush gun  good for deer and hogs.

Yup ..... and you can shoot gas checked cast slugs up at those speeds that you read about in the article.   You will note that they use a LOT of slow H110 to get there though, at relatively lower pressures.  

Smiley   Like 3 times as much as you can put inside a 9mm case .....
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #59 - 11/07/13 at 06:48:17
 
Well looks like I may be mistaken....
well on one side I seemed to error.. sorry about that

On the other side.. Hooray.. my geriactic .357 isn't as sad as I recall being told.

I am using a Rossi .357. But only because the others are just too expesive and impossible to find used. I was able to get a rare DW fixed barrel .357 ( used and abused) and a really nice older Rossi for under $750 in a combo deal.  Thought the Rossi was old, it was completely pristine.

The powders I commonly use are:
H110
Titegroup
HP-38
Lil'gun ( just to try it)

Titegroup has a large .38/.357 reloading list. Hp-38 not so much. I have not gotten into experimenting. So I pretty much follow the cookbooks as best I can.
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