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Reloading for the rest of us (Read 488 times)
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Reloading for the rest of us
10/23/13 at 23:03:30
 

First, let me say that a vast majority of the folks who are reading this in Cafe likely shoot a gun on occasion.

Next, seems like most of us are suddenly on the "not rich" side of things ......
(and are getting more non-richer by the month, seems like).

Which brings up the high price of ammo, the lack of ammo and the art of reloading.

Some of you are going into the poor house paying a dollar a round just to shoot your toys a very limited amount.   Some of you are just now paying over $500 to get your first toy then you find you "really can't afford to shoot it very much".

Or worse yet, "I can't find any ammo for my toy anywhere".

Angry

================


Historically, this situation has happened before in America.   It was bad right after WWII and it got bad again during the Clinton years.  

Now it has gotten REALLY REALLY bad just lately and after much discussion the real root cause has become clear and it has been documented by EVERY ammo maker on their home pages.

"The raw demand for firearms and ammunition has outstripped the total world wide supply of finished ammo of all calibers by a factor of at least 2x."

Yup, everybody wants some personal protection and they are buying and storing ammo at rates never before seen in America.

Supply is getting better now, but ammo prices had skyrocketed during the last shortage and by golly those prices don't seem to be going down for much as the supply slowly goes back up.

What can be done about it?

A simple answer is to save your brass and reload those cases again.


Huh     Huh     Huh


I can't do that, can I?    Is it legal?    Does it really save you any money?   Does that reloaded stuff really work?    Is it hard to do?
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #1 - 10/24/13 at 06:53:33
 
I can't tell if your making a statement, or asking about reloading.

I can't do that, can I?  
Yes, you can do it, and its actually kinda fun. Especially if you are making a custom round (like I do). The process is very simple, the tools are not horribly expensive. it truly is a rural American heritage.  

Is it legal?    
It "might" vary by state, but as far as I know, its legal in every state. In fact ... while "cop killers" are illegal to buy and sell, they are legal to make.


Does it really save you any money?  
I hang around a few re-loaders.. and the common joke is " it don't save you anything... it just lets you shoot more!" As with most things, you have to break the investment barrier. A $400 investment in press and sundry tools, will mean you have roll a BUNCH rounds before you break even. Some people ( like me) can make a second break. Once you start, ongoing components that must be bought are:
primers
powder
bullet

Because I shoot a .357, I can easily shoot pure lead bullets (as opposed to jacketd). Semi-autos often cant, or if they do, its a real mess to cleanup the lead fouling in the barrel. I have ( still) about 120 lbs of lead bars home-made from wheel weights ( free) which I then make into bullets.  But even that is going to be short lived, and may be over. Lead is no longer used in wheel weights, or fishing weights.. so the "free" is all but gone.


Does that reloaded stuff really work?    
Oh hell yes!

Is it hard to do?
Some people that get into it, enjoy it as much as they do shooting! Folks who load hunting rounds ( 30-06, 7mm, even 30-30) enjoy creating a custom load that can be "tuned" to their gun. By changing powders, primers, and bullets... they can make .. what cant be bought at any price.
IF you can find someone to show you how, no it is not hard. But like riding a bike... laziness and stupidity can cost you a hand or even your life.  
Straight wall, low power rounds ( like mine) are very simple. I can crank 100 in an hour with a 20 minute set up. I use a progressive press, which, once its set up, makes the actual mechanical process nearly fool proof.

Some things seem counter intuitive. For instance... a heavier bullet requires LESS powder. Because the pressure that builds up to get the bullet moving builds up more before the bullet starts to move. Other fun facts: primers can be "hot" or "cold", powders burn at different speeds and rates. Lead bullets can create a liquified skin as they travel down the barrel.

Also know that rolling your own does not mean that components are available either. Primers and powders were VERY scarce a few years back. Getting the best price often means buying in bulk, so I often go in on a group buy and get enough until they do another group buy. That can mean 1 or even more years between buys. That becomes a re rather significant investment.
Lastly, it almost ALWAYS illegal to sell complete cartridges. And no one wants to pay what they are worth anyway. So fully expect that if you do get into re-loading, what you end up with ... only has value to YOU.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #2 - 10/24/13 at 07:04:57
 
They still use lead in batteries.. time & hassle factor in there.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #3 - 10/24/13 at 07:36:18
 

Batteries are a poor source of lead (a casting unfriendly alloy of lead used is only half the battery mass, plus it is nasty/messy beyond belief once you crack one open).   Batteries are now grids or sponges of lead and other grids/sponges of zinc, not solid nice plates as they once were.  Plus, if you mistakenly try to melt even a piece of a zinc plate in with your lead plates, the result becomes zinc contaminated and uncastable.

Wheel weights are the best lead source (and most available as every Walmart in the land throws them away by the bucket full).

So, you see investment as being what stops people from starting reloading?    I think it is lack of understanding how easy it is.

So, roll your clock back to when you started reloading.   Think about starting out now, on the cheap.   Think of being strapped, and still wanting to shoot your "XXX" some.   That's where I started out, fresh out of college.

Two of the most common toys right now are a 9mm pistol or a .223 based rifle.  

Anybody got one of those they can't readily feed (so as to shoot as much as they would like to shoot them)?



=================


Everything Pine says is true, from the viewpoint of an old reloader who kinda/sorta regrets all the stuff he bought over the years as his habit grew.  

I can copy that thought too, but it applies more to us old codger reloaders who have had over 20 years to build up lots of "stuff".   And yes, I have them durn white gallon jugs of powder laying about and commonly buy my bullets on special bulk lots of 1,000 or 500 to save money.  

And yep, an old long term reloader can derive as much or more enjoyment out of making up the ammo for a new toy and modifying the toy itself to perform better compared to the actual shooting.   Heck  -- the shooting can get all anti-climactic compared to all the fun you get out of it before the shooting starts.

And I will add that the stuff never goes bad or evaporates.  Stored in an AC/heated closet top inside your house reloading components have an extremely long shelf life.


============


So, what this conversation needs is the "interested beginning party" or the customer who wants the information.

And once you declare your actual need we can give you a conversation tailored to your situation.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #4 - 10/24/13 at 07:39:26
 
Lastly, it almost ALWAYS illegal to sell complete cartridges. And no one wants to pay what they are worth anyway. So fully expect that if you do get into re-loading, what you end up with ... only has value to YOU.

In other words "The Goverement , hasn't figured out a way to TAKE  a dollar from us doin't our own reloading finished products , so its currently ILLEAGAL ".  Tongue

Up untill the time I got a 32ACP I had never bought a centerfire cartride , but have shot Thousands .    Dad bought a single stage press when I was 14 and I allways just bought componets !    Now I've still got that single stage press and have a whole drawer full of molds and gas checks.

Loading shotgun shells cost as much as buying those 100ct. boxes but if you like to shoot "Turkey" or "Duck and Phesant" loads you can still save a bunch of money !  Wink   It only cost a few pennys extra to go from "Field" loads to the hotter + Heavyer loads.  

Most of my centerfire guns are not "AutoMatic's" due to the "Where did the brass go" factor.    Smiley
Copy and paste:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Its a good starting place.  Smiley

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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #5 - 10/24/13 at 08:07:55
 

Yup, BATF takes a real dim view of folks selling them reloads -- wants to see their production facility license and tax ID number they do.

Plus, lawyers of the spouse of the person that got damaged by a reload tend to be down right unfriendly to deal with.

It ain't a business, it is for personal use.


===================


So, some of you are actually buying toys in case it all goes to hell on us.  

So, how did you plan to feed those toys in the event it does go all to hell on us?
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #6 - 10/24/13 at 16:49:32
 
Quote:
So, how did you plan to feed those toys in the event it does go all to hell on us?


Well, for me reloading is a hobby, and a way to shoot much more than I'd be able to afford to do if I had to shoot only factory ammo.

But to your question. Primers are the achilles heel. Cases can be used over and over and are often free for the trouble of picking them up or rummaging through the trash at a lot of ranges. Or just have your buddies who don't reload save them for you. You can cast your own bullets. It's even possible to make your own black powder should it ever come to that.

But I'm not aware of any viable way for a hobbyist/survivialist to make primers.

A couple of years ago primers, for some reason never satisfactorily explained to me, became very hard to get. Sort of like the situation with 22LR ammo right now. They have become available again but the price took a pretty steep jump. Steeper than what inflation would account for. Dry up the supply of primers and we are pretty much out of buisness.

Unless of course you happen to have a flintlock. Smiley
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #7 - 10/24/13 at 18:59:12
 

Primers are available, and cost $30 per thousand, or $3 per hundred, or 3 cents each.

A brick.or two of primers would last you one apocolypse, give or take a gaggle of gouls.

Powder is sold by gallon jugs.   Get a couple jugs of "do anything" powders like IMR 4895 and WC 820 and you are fixed pretty good for many thousands of .223 reloads.


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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #8 - 10/24/13 at 22:32:51
 
What kind of money can I expect to spend to get everything to get started. Right now, I'm intersted in 223, 308, 357, 380, 30-30 and 7.62 x 39. My guns are auto(built for social work) except for the 308 and 30-30. I know theres single presses and I guess you call them turret presses, rotates and does more than one bullet at a time. Back in the 70's I had a single press? I've seen tumblers. Are they necesary or are they for someone who wants pretty bullets? I have a good set of digital calipers. I dont have a good place to shoot my rifles (working on it) but if I could come out even reloading I'd be happy. Being disabled I have plenty of time. I'd like to have ammo to practice more and become a better shot. I've never missed a deer but I've never had a long shot, over 100 yards. Cant hunt anymore because i cant get em out of the woods and skin em but when I see these guys making 2 and 300 yard shots I get jealous and want to try it. Its just expensive with a centerfire.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #9 - 10/25/13 at 04:54:52
 
Quote:
Primers are available, and cost $30 per thousand, or $3 per hundred, or 3 cents each.

A brick.or two of primers would last you one apocolypse, give or take a gaggle of gouls.


Two years ago they were $15.00 per thousand. I've still got a couple of bricks of small pistol primers with the price tags on the box.

How long they last depends on how much you shoot. I know competitive pistol shooters who shoot more than a thousand rounds a month. The only guns I shoot any where near that much are my shotguns because I shoot sporting clays or five-stand at least once a week - that's 2500 or 3000 shells a year. And I have friends that go through more than that.

209 shotgun primers are about 36-40 bucks a thousand right now. Even at the current price of powder and shot, the price of factory 12 ga. target loads has increased enough in the past couple of years that a lot of guys who didn't think it was worth the trouble to reload target loads are getting into it.

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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #10 - 10/25/13 at 06:32:58
 
I'm probably not saving much reloading pistols or rifle ammo but save a lot reloading .410 shells. I am only reloading .223 right now for rifles. I reload .380, 9mm, 9mm Largo, .40S&W and .45ACP using Hodgdon Universal for all of them with either Rainier or Berry's plated bullets. I have three presses; a Lee single stage, Lee turret press and a MEC press (.410)
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #11 - 10/25/13 at 06:41:35
 
Midnight;
I will have to let the others speak to the necked rounds/rifle rounds. These operate at much higher pressures and can add more steps.

I bought a factory rebuilt Dillion progressive press (each pull of the lever, outputs a round) for the 38/357. However, I have the cheapest Dillion (450) which costs a bunch to convert. I do own a 9mm and I could convert mine to do it. But if I could get another rebuild, I would do that instead. The price was about $300. I got both a digial and balance scale, boxes, bullet puller.. really we are not talking a lot of money. $500 max. But that is for one caliber ( in my case 2).

CL is often full of "Uncle Bills shop full of scary reload stuff" please come buy it for $50!!!!! I am not kidding. Old reloaders do die and when they do... the stuff goes for crazy cheap. Mostly because folks are scared of it! He's has a 4 lb can of GUNPOWDER!!! that could blow up the world!!!!

The most important part is the same as any hobby.. networking. Find folks to do group buys with, to help with finding sources of lead, make trades with... even cast your bullets for you!  We have a guy down here that make ingot molds from angle iron!
I also like to find local businesses that support the hobby and then I try to support them. Yes, I have bought primer for a bit more locally... then if I bought on the internet.

Lastly.. reloading means I have an excuse to go to a gun show. I tell that wife I have go.."cause they may have primers on sale!". Then I go drool over the old shotguns...
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #12 - 10/25/13 at 06:43:27
 

And say, like Midnight, someone has just jumped into .223 and 7.62x39 as well as 9mm pistol or some such.

And say this person just wanted to reload enough to keep up with his shooting, on a casual basis.

All of these calibers will load on a 3 hole Lee Turret press, which is the least costly of the rotating top semi-progressives at $67.   This is the minimum press that can "do everything" for these calibers and at a speed that is so-so fair.   Also, if you take the auto-rotate off the press and rotate it by hand, you can do all the common big rifle calibers as well.   But, with .223 and 7.62x39 you can auto rotate if you want to.

There is a new bigger cast iron turret press from Lee that looks right good but costs a little more at $99.   I'd pop for it if I were starting over as it can auto-rotate the big rifle cartridges and it looks REAL SOLID and much better built than the old aluminum 3 holer or 4 holer Lee stuff.

This is my recommended starting press for someone just getting into the game.





=======================



Now we poll the old reloaders for their accumulated knowledge & opinions.  

I used to worry about reloading speed and volume production, but now that it is an enjoyment on its own I load most things other than volume 9mm/40S&W on a single stage cast iron press.  

Why?  Because I like the feel of it, I like the big ram coming up perfectly aligned by tightly fitted massive cast iron casting and chromed steel ram.  I like KNOWING that bullet was seated perfectly square to the case, with no variation whatsoever due to slop in the mechanical clearances in a moving plate system.  Speed isn't a goal for me any more.

Pistol, I will use a progressive.   I do not think the little amount of clearance slop in a movable plate press really matters much to a pistol round any as the looseness of a pistol round in its chamber is a greater variable than the press slop.

I also now like to deprime and resize and then chemically clean then lube and then reprime with a hand priming tool rather than do it all on a progressive press. Most errors on progressive presses are caused by the repriming step, so by feeding the process with primed brass the progressive only has to keep up with loading the cases, powder charging and bullet seating, which is all very much easy do on all my progressive presses.   Since I started doing this, reloading stoppages and errors have been ZERO, something which was not true when I tried to resize and reprime on them busy busy busy progressive presses.


=======================


Something that is relatively new to me is citric acid and soap cleaning of brass.   I will take a bulk batch of dirty fired brass and toss it into my big Dillon vibrator bowl with a teaspoon of citric acid powder (yep, the stuff that is used in canning) and some Dawn from the sink and enough water to cover the bottom of the bowl.   The water should not exit the bowl even with the top open (and it will if you use too much water).

Some younger reloaders who have never bought a tumbler or a bowl just clean their brass by soaking for several hours to overnight.   I've tried it and it works, but since I have the big vibrator bowl I will use it to cut down the cycle time to less than an hour.

So, instead of using walnut or corn cob media for hours and hours in a tumber to get brass clean, using citric acid and dishwashing soap for me the brass is clean inside an hour, plus all the crud inside the case and primer pockets  is gone too.  Chemical cleaning, neat stuff that.

No, it isn't as pretty as media and polish tumbled brass.  Nothing beats media for shiny looking.   But honestly, after six months all that shiny is gone anyway and it all looks pretty much the same by then.

Brass is then rinsed good in the sink to get rid of the citric acid and soap.  Then I roll the brass in an old bath towel to get most of the water off of it.  Brass still needs to be oven dried at 200 degrees to get rid of the interior water  then it needs to be very lightly surface oiled for surface protection as the chemically cleaned surfaces are reactive to the air unless lightly oiled.  

Rifle brass requires oiling anyway for size/deprime but this is just a surface protection for the pistol stuff as carbide dies don't care either way.   Your arm and your progressive press will like the lubed pistol brass better, as a lot of the herky jerky that progressives suffer from come from forced resizing unlubed cases by main force in dry carbide dies, them oiled cases just slide in nice and easy with no jerking on retraction.   You will learn to like oiled pistol cases as they keep better over time too -- no verdigris or uneven tarnishing to the degree you may have seen in the past on your media processed brass.

Canola oil, the stuff your wife keeps around for cooking, is a good case lubricant and brass surface protectant -- just remember your goal is a fine very slight oily feel to the brass so DON'T OVERDO IT with the oil.    A Walmart plastic bag is good for oiling, just stir the brass around inside the bag until brass and bag are very very slightly oily feeling.  

Wink   A very very small tiny dribble of oil will oil up a LOT of brass ....


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« Last Edit: 10/25/13 at 08:21:39 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #13 - 10/25/13 at 07:02:38
 
I don't have any/many tricks... I will have to try that chem clean.. still using corn cob here..


I have been told:
Don't reload old Glock 9mm brass. Here's why; Glocks are great guns, and VERY reliable. Part of that reliability stems from the fact that a round is not fully enclosed when in the breach. This is not an issue with a new round ( generally). But the used round from the Glock will now have a bulge and be weaker where it was not enclosed. The reloading process will put the round back to spec.. but it will still be weak. One can imagine that doing this repeatedly to the same round.
This has turned into a common practice now to not use range brass of unknown origin.. esp law enforcement brass, as many departments use GLOCKS exclusively.

Nickel plated brass is self lubricating when reloading ( ok its just slicker). This is cool as heck. I have been using the same 3000 rounds of 38 special for 20 years. Most of it has been reloaded well over 10 times.  part of the longevity is that these are low power ( 800 fps) rounds with lead bullets (I just barley open them up and then crimp lightly). I am only now getting a significant failure rate.
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Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Reply #14 - 10/25/13 at 07:40:04
 

All of this "common knowledge" about Glocks came about due to the first generation Glock 40, its unsupported over the ramp chamber. and the well publicized Kbm tracking that went on during that time.  

Gen 1 Glock 40s have long since been rolled out of service by all police departments a long long time ago.   Glock traded in ALL police Gen 1 guns in a "trade up" program that was intended to purge out the Gen 1 guns as a corporate image thing.  The actual unsupported chamber issue was fixed in Gen 2 guns up through Gen 4 which is the current Gen.   Issue doesn't exist any more to any real degree.

The odds of seeing a bulged side on a fired Glock 40 case is actually pretty slim any more.  And I mean it wasn't bashful, you'd notice it when you picked the brass up.

The issue NEVER EXISTED on 9mm Glock, so it isn't real for 9mm at all.   People talking about 9mm Glocks and stuff are just being silly.

Now, I had a Gen 1 Glock 40 at that time and I did resize and reload the brass that came out of it.   For years and years and years.

The ramp bulge was very familiar to me as ALL 1911 Colts did the same exact thing.   What made the Colts relatively safer than the Gen 1 Glock 40 was that the 45ACP's pressure was a lot lower in the Colt.   And when a Colt case let loose it just blew the magazine out the bottom of the gun and never seemed to hurt anybody for much.   The gun damage was very minimal as well.

Gen 1 Glock 40 blew out a higher pressure case, spit the magazine out, sometimes split the plastic body of the gun, could hurt the holding hand and sometimes threw bits at the bystanders.  The gun was always totally ruined.  A Gen 1 Glock 40  Kbm was a notice-worthy event ....

So, this is ancient history unless you notice a bulge in a Glock fired 40 S&W case, in which case you can toss it if it makes you feel better.

My current 40 is a modified Beretta 96 that has a fully supported chamber, so I can shoot anything from any source (and I do).

And that is not to say I don't like a Glock, because I do.   My daughter and her husband however came by a while back and took my Glocks away from me for their own use (my daughter has good taste in guns, always has).
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